A new weapon

[greenbull]

So, we're progressing well and well thru the core and I hope that in some months we can finish gearing the bulk of our raid and get some tries at BWL.

Currently I use Timeworn Mace as my tanking Main Hand. It's a nice tank weapon and probably the best pre-MC/BWL. The thing is, it's speed and low white damage is starting to make the friday fights a little harder. So I went to the warrior forums looking for tanking weapons and found some cool stuff:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=21673

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18805

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18203

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=14555

WTF, crazy moo, are you stealing rogues? Well, fastest weapons are very very good for tanking. It means more heroic strikes and less problems with parries and misses.

The other good and fast options are

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=21522

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19168

And those two are the ones that I may be aiming for, if someone care to explain how hard is to do the Questline in silithus

And Blackguard would take a serious ammount of farming from my part, and finding someone that can make it.

Well, there're always the obvious choices:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18348

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19867

Quel'Serrar is actually my most hated weapon ever. It's related to how it's boring to get it or doing an Onyxia raid. Broodlord Defender was my dream for a lot of time, but the luck involved in getting it is beyond my reach, I think. The advantage of some of the daggers/swords above is that they either be crafted or rewarded from quests, that means that + time farming is reflected in 100% chance of getting it, while doing DM or ZG over and over again can either reward me on the first run or never. I always prefer 100% chance, even if it means that I'll have to farm stuff for weeks.

But, o'course, I'm only posting this here because I want opinions from everybody.

[Scryll]

I suspect that there would probably be some grumbling among the rogues if you took home a Core Hound's Tooth, at least in the next month, but I'd like to point out that I think all of the rogues that come to MC either already have Eshkandar, or are passing on it. If I'm recalling correctly, it's already gone to one warrior because no rogue placed a bid.

I have to say, though, that I thought daggers and fists didn't work out well for warriors unless they were dual-wielding, which you wouldn't be, you'd be using a shield.

[Martok]

You are still the best Jagged Axe wielding warrior I have ever seen Green.

I suggest using that again!

[Grimgor]

If I'm recalling correctly, it's already gone to one warrior because no rogue placed a bid.

Yeah who was that?

Greenbull, I know we discussed this in whisper the other day as we ducked and parried against Onyxia (or was it MC? Feh). As I read over your first few links I started to ask "Why not Quel Serrar?" but then I saw your answer to that as I read on. I don't know man... compared to those daggers and such, Quel Serrar seems the logical choice. It's a tanking weapon, pure and simple. Stamina, an armor proc, and good swing speed (not a dagger speed but still, 2.00 is fast).

Blackguard would be a good choice too, but I think that's going to prove a rare bird to hunt.

I found some others for your consideration:

http://www.thotbott.com/?i=52961

http://www.thotbott.com/?i=52228

http://www.thotbott.com/?i=52801

http://www.thotbott.com/?i=40784

Since a couple of these are slower than you seem to want, a note about slow swing speeds. I am pretty sure the conventional wisdom says that fast is better, but that doesn't mean I am convinced that's totally correct. The math works about the same, and as for faster Heroic Strikes, okay... but when you crit, you crit bigger, and you always have shield block/revenge and slam. I am not convinced the faster HS speed is much of a consideration, since all else is on different timers.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Grimgor

[Waldonnis]

I don't think we have many dagger rogues attending MC, so you might not have much competition for a Gutgore Ripper (drops from Garr...1.8 speed dagger, but lacks stats). The only weapons I grumble about when a rogue loses them are Fang of the Faceless, Felstriker, and Perdition's Blade, but that's just me wishing I had them for Toba

I haven't checked the lists from ZG, but I think I saw something that looked nice in there for warriors seeking a faster main-hand blade....wish I could remember what it was. I'll check when I'm in-game, though, and let you know. There's also a nice sword in AQ20 (again, bad memory) and the Thunderwood Poker dagger reward from the Perfect Poison quest is actually not bad either (although not epic). Being a dagger rogue, I don't know much about swords, but I do know fast weapons Grawuulf has Alcor's Sunrazor...may want to ask him how that dagger's been for him if you're considering it...very tough to get to drop, though.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

I normally don't like to weigh in on "which weapon" conversations, because I have been burned so many times on the "your class shouldn't use it" argument. It gets old.

Regarding the CHT, the fact is it makes a much better DPS melee class weapon than it does tanking.

On one hand, if we are going to look at class benefit as the deciding factor, this means, imo, it should be going to DPS melee people first. If you are a tank, that means you would have to wait until Rogues (who should have priority) and then Enhancement Shaman and Fury Warriors have gotten it before a Tanking warrior gets it...benefit to the raid and all.

On the other hand, this is a DKP item. If you have the most DKP, you should win the item. It's fair, it's balanced. But then people begin hoarding DKP for the item(s) they want to have and everyone else suffers when the Zero-Sum begins to be effected by people allowing usuable items to be DE'd. Personally, I favor this approach until people begin hoarding DKP.

There is no easy answer, well, there is, but it isn't a popular one. There are better weapons for tanking, and if it means going in to ZG to get the weapon(s) you need, then let's do that. There are also a couple good tanking weapons in AQ20 as well. Finally, I know of Tier 1 and Tier 2 Tanks that are using the Annihilator as a tanking weapon. Remember, tanking is not about damage, it's about generating and holding the monster's hate against 39 other people.

Hope this somehow helps.

[Waldonnis]

I'm of the "if it can and will be used...and you have the DKP for it" mindset over even the "who does it benefit more" thing. If the CHT would be used by Green and he has the DKP for it, I'm fine with him getting it even before a rogue or enhancement shaman. I think the bigger question is, though...is that the weapon he's looking for to begin with? I suspect it's not, actually, and would hate to see him blow DKP on something only to find that it's not that great for him.

One thing I've noticed with Hoofie is how much hate is generated by crits (even though they are low-damage, they seem to really help). Not knowing the agility:crit chance formula for warriors, I'm wondering if a reasonable speed (2.x speed) weapon that increases to-hit and/or crit chance via stats would be more beneficial than a weapon that's only faster. Also, the threat enchant may be something to consider if you're finding it harder to keep the mobs focused on you now that the rest of us have gear that has increased our damage potential (nasty mats, but it does look interesting).

[Grimgor]

One thing I've noticed with Hoofie is how much hate is generated by crits (even though they are low-damage, they seem to really help). Not knowing the agility:crit chance formula for warriors, I'm wondering if a reasonable speed (2.x speed) weapon that increases to-hit and/or crit chance via stats would be more beneficial than a weapon that's only faster.

And so we come full circle. Greenbull may well have thought about this before our conversation but I mentioned a hammer that I think he'd enjoy using. It's a recipe that I recently had the fortune to obtain, and it's exactly the sort of weapon you're talking about with the +hit and +crit bonuses:

http://www.thotbott.com/?i=53315

Still, there's better dps on one-handers but they're usually the ones that you have to be kitted out to be there anyway.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

oh holy hell...I want one of those for when I am 1h fighting with my shaman. Talk to you in-game.

[greenbull]

+crit is cool, agi:crit on warriors is the same as other classes (not rogue/hunter) so it's a pain to get any good bonus on that.

Persuader has a good DPS and and +hit and +crit, but still a slow weapon, and I'm looking for a reasonably fast weapon.

Verissi, the weapon you're thinking in ZG is the Bloodlord's Defender. Since ZG group I started (and it was months ago, ask Gordan), Belaru (the MT there) saw it drop only once. It's rare as hell.

Edited June 28, 2006 by greenbull

[Grimgor]

I guess my point is that fast or slow only affects 1 thing for you as a tank: Heroic Strike. All your other tools for aggro management are on timers that are independent of speed. How often is HS used compared to Shield Slam/Block and Revenge? I know raw dps and such is not really the point of a tank weapon, but more damage still does translate to more hate generation.

This isn't some pressure campaign to try to get you to "buy my hammer" ... heh, but I guess the compelling part of this is I want to be part of the solution. I know the Persuader isn't exactly a "tanking hammer" since it doesn't have any of the prized +stam or +def/armor bonuses, but as a good dps weapon, I was thinking it could serve well. I could be wrong -- as I am not and probably will never be a raid MT -- but I do play warriors and I guess I am trying to see if there's a compelling argument against my current assumptions and understandings.