MC: An outsider's perception

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Last night I ran with my guild for the first time in Molten Core, and I had an absolute blast. My definition of "A-Game" is what I finally got to experience last night - "People doing what they are supposed to be doing to ensure the overall success of the raid as a whole." There was no ######ing, no whining. In fact, things went so well that I was absolutely relaxed despite being the FNG to the raid...I think I actually played better because of it. And, I am not saying that we didnt screw the pooch a couple times, either. Things didn't necessarily go 100% right, but overall, the run went smoothly. People reacted appropriately and immediately. Situational awareness was at a high point. People were playing with the attention to detail that is foundational in end-game raiding. It was a blast and I wish we could have kept going, I needed a mid-week pick-me-up like that.

With that said, I had a couple of things that I noticed that were different than what I am used to doing, not necessarily better or worse, just different. I believe that a couple would aid in our speed in clearing bosses and trash mobs. Please also understand that this will be and is intended to be a work in progress (until we get Ragnaros on farm status). Again, please, I am not criticizing, because it works, and well. Just pointing out a couple things that I saw differently.

WOOTS:

1.) Maube - excellent job in balancing the raid with the people that showed up. You put, at least from my perspective, people into groups based on classes and specializations that would compliment each other. On top of knowing the strategies that will make a dungeon run work, knowing your people's strengths and weaknesses is what will be the major determining factor in whether or not a raid will continue to progress or not. I was impressed.

2.) Warriors - tanks and DPS types - excellent job in holding aggro. I have yet to determine the aggro strength of my new (well, sort of - since the spec update) Enhancement/Elemental build. For the most part, I was able to go full tilt with 100% aggro generating combos (Rockbiter+Stormstrike+Earthshock inside of 2 seconds = huge aggro gain) without stealing aggro. The couple times I did yank aggro, you got it back and held it. Flexibility and durability - again, key strengths of the raid concerning the tanks, I noticed at times that the raid was pulling multiple mobs (accidentally on purpose a couple times) and we held our ground and kicked some butt. AND we were short handed.

3.) Healing - main and assistant type. Kalrash (sp?) did an excellent job of setting up what needed to happen, when it needed to happen, and by whom it needed to happen. For the most part, I wasn't assigned to a specific person, so I spot healed in the raid. What I found impressive here was the personal attention he played and paid to ensure that this aspect of the raid was covered. As a person who leads when he can, knowing that I have someone covering an important aspect of what needs to be accomplished that will get the job done makes life that much easier, and is probably a large reason why Maube did such a great job last night.

THOUGHTS:

Trash Mobs:

• Firelords: Last night I noticed that we were asked to wait until the first spawn to begin DPSing, and that when the spawn happened, to DPS it first. I am used to everyone piling onto the Firelords immediately and then peeling off onto the spawn. By going this route we are sometimes able to avoid having a spawn at all, and when it happens we only ever get one spawn. That is about 10-15 seconds of full raid pounding on the Firelord. In addition, Mages will already have Blizzard falling in the area to catch the FL and spawn.
  
• Imps: The only thing I saw that was different was a lack of a "Warstomp Rotation". They are stunnable. This involves getting the Tauren all together at the entrance to where we first go in before clearing to Lucifron, and aassigning them a spot in the rotation. The first stomp is always a tank, who also gets bubbled. Then everyone runs in and does what we have to do to kill them off. It does clear faster than what we did with our 28 people.
  
• Magmadar's puppies (in his chambers, not the core hounds): They were assigned correctly, but the warriors were not split among the groups as evenly as what I was used to. By putting the warriors into completely separate melee groups, you ensure a little more balanced damage across the group of puppies and get less of the "lay off #4, more on #5" than what I heard last night. Typically, groups 1-5 are melee/melee support, 7 is mages, 8 is druids from my experience.
  

Bosses:

• Magmadar: The only differences to this fight that I noticed was the placement of the boss in relation to the raid and tank/offtank support. It appeared that we fought him in the middle of his chamber, which didn't leave a lot of manuever room once he started flinging flaming poo. From my experience, he is usually pulled to the location of the next to the last Puppy Pack on the right side of his hall, and then faced towards the back wall. This seems to keep his conflags to the back end of the hall and allows more room to run and bandage as necessary. Every warrior who will possibly end up tanking needs to have a shaman in his group with a tremor totem down. This allows the tanks/offtanks to break fear when their talent is on cooldown. There was a point in the fight where TT was LD, and his warrior had to pick up and hold aggro, but couldn't do so effectively because he couldn't break fear.
  
• Ghennas: No comments other than it was nice to tank the assistants on the other side of the hall compared to where we enter. Was a very, very nice change. I would suggest giving the tank/offtanks Free Action Potions to use at the beginning of the encounter to counter the Fist of Ragnaros stun and generate even more hate to keep them from moving even more.
  
• Garr: I am used to seeing just Warlocks holding off the extra minions using their Void Walkers. This would free up the hunters to do more damage to Garr. It works both ways.
  
• Baron Geddon: No comments. Textbook encounter
  
• Shazzrah: This encounter is the most fun/frustrating for me personally. I take between 700-1300 damage each time I run in to purge due to his/her AoE pulse. Having more than one detect magic up at a time is neither a good or bad thing, it just helps. There were times during the fight that there were no detects up, and due to the damage I take, I get a little leary of running in spamming purge blindly. I do it because I must, but I (as a Shaman) would prefer to see every mage's detect up during the fight. Also, there seemed to be some confusion as to what to do when he blinked. When he does that, he dumps the Tank's aggro and goes for a new target. It's shown in the Target's Target window. Whoever that is needs to run to the middle and drag Shazz with him/her. DPS stops until Shazz is back in the middle and focusing on the Tank. Takes about 3 seconds if done right (which we did for the most part).
  

So, having read this far, let me please re-iterate something I said already. I am not knocking the raid or the tactics or anything like that. Just offering my experiences from last night from a little different perspective as far as MC is concerned. I hope that my contribution somehow made a difference last night, and I hope to earn a permanent spot in the raid.

(TO BE CONTINUED POST SULFURON, GOLEMAGG, MAJORDOMO EXECUTUS & RAGNAROS)

EDITED: If by some reason someone becomes offended by this, please delete it. I am not trying to let the Llama out of the pen to feed.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Jeroabem/Sabrianica

[Maube]

The techniques we use are due to our own situational experience

Took us 5 weeks to get Geddon down.

Big thing with Shazz, every week people panic when he blinks, we dont like unpredictability. and pleae remember... we only have 3 mages on Wednesdays (not by my greediness either =p) and getting in range to Detect when I am in the back bandaging my wounds isnt a top priority until I know I can survive a blink AOE. Just trying to get the Curse off Greenbull often kills me =p

The Gar thing is to have their pets on the banished to buy the warlock a little time. This we use because some days we dont have 5 warlocks.

[Waldonnis]

[*] Magmadar's puppies (in his chambers, not the core hounds): They were assigned correctly, but the warriors were not split among the groups as evenly as what I was used to. By putting the warriors into completely separate melee groups, you ensure a little more balanced damage across the group of puppies and get less of the "lay off #4, more on #5" than what I heard last night. Typically, groups 1-5 are melee/melee support, 7 is mages, 8 is druids from my experience.

Bosses:

I'm not sure I know what you mean by putting warriors into melee groups and how it would ensure more even damage. Given gear differences and damage potential (depending on certain specs...CB/Prep rogues vs Combat sword rogues, for example), we'd probably still see some pronounced differences in damage done per-hound. Also, our casters tend to do some pretty heavy relative damage, so unless we're all AoE'ing the packs the whole time, magical damage won't be distributed evenly either (my mana pool couldn't handle constant AoE anyway...just not built for it...not to mention a quirk of mage AoE where some mobs within the AoE take less damage than the others at times). Worth thinking about, though.

We like to hear Maube barking out orders anyway during those encounters...it's just too funny

[*] Ghennas: No comments other than it was nice to tank the assistants on the other side of the hall compared to where we enter. Was a very, very nice change. I would suggest giving the tank/offtanks Free Action Potions to use at the beginning of the encounter to counter the Fist of Ragnaros stun and generate even more hate to keep them from moving even more.

I've been thinking about FA potions as well, but had no clue if they would actually work or help with initial hate generation (since half of my CC as a mage is useless in MC and other instances, I never assume anything will work..hehehe). Worth a shot and I think I may have some laying around that I can pass out to the tanks on Wednesday. Since I'm secondary decurser, I don't really see or pay attention to what's going on with the guards...but if initial aggro is a problem, those potions are easy enough to make and try

Having the entire hall to work with...it's fantastic. We tried every tactic out there and this just flat-out worked the best from all angles. Mana use from decursing is reduced, rain of fire proximity problems avoided, random shadowbolts aren't too rough to deal with, etc...it's all so much easier this way than the other strategies and worth the extra set-up time. We could do it like others do and still get by, but I think we all enjoy having the extra room to play with (and I love having the pillar there so I can avoid that first shadowbolt).

[*] Garr: I am used to seeing just Warlocks holding off the extra minions using their Void Walkers. This would free up the hunters to do more damage to Garr. It works both ways.

Maube's reply is accurate on both counts. Also, having brought Wald in for Garr a few times, I know blue goes down FAST against those things unless you have some demonology in your spec (and even then...torment resists suck too). I had to resummon mine a few times the last time I did it, which was very taxing on my mana pool and timing. Having the additional pet is incredibly useful for adding another damage sponge between the warlock and Garr's minion. If we have an unassigned warlock, I can see not tying up the hunters as much, but meh...works either way.

[*] Shazzrah: This encounter is the most fun/frustrating for me personally. I take between 700-1300 damage each time I run in to purge due to his/her AoE pulse. Having more than one detect magic up at a time is neither a good or bad thing, it just helps. There were times during the fight that there were no detects up, and due to the damage I take, I get a little leary of running in spamming purge blindly. I do it because I must, but I (as a Shaman) would prefer to see every mage's detect up during the fight. Also, there seemed to be some confusion as to what to do when he blinked. When he does that, he dumps the Tank's aggro and goes for a new target. It's shown in the Target's Target window. Whoever that is needs to run to the middle and drag Shazz with him/her. DPS stops until Shazz is back in the middle and focusing on the Tank. Takes about 3 seconds if done right (which we did for the most part).

Proximity bites us here. Every time someone gets hit by that AE, they're added to or bumped up on the hate list, making it harder to deal with for the tank. At the beginning of the fight, everyone is spread out fairly well, but I've noticed that the semi-circle falls apart after the first blink and clumps of people start forming (no doubt trying to get in-range). When Shaz blinks into one of these clumps, much panic usually ensues, the hate table is populated with more targets, and poor Green has to run all over trying to catch up with Shaz and work harder to get her back. If there's one thing that we can definitely improve on, it's ending the "backing up in panic" thing. I can't stress this enough: you're better off standing still if you're not going to run towards Green because you cannot outrun Shaz or that AoE if she's focused on you.

As for the detect magic...mea culpa on that one. We shifted roles a bit amongst the mages this past week (I'm usually the DM monkey) and I forgot to ask someone else to pick up the duty explicitely. For some reason, I've also been seeing more DM and counterspells resisted since 1.11 (took four casts to land one on Shaz during the first attempt on Wednesday...usually hits on the first cast). Not an excuse, but something to consider.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Proximity bites us here. Every time someone gets hit by that AE, they're added to or bumped up on the hate list, making it harder to deal with for the tank. At the beginning of the fight, everyone is spread out fairly well, but I've noticed that the semi-circle falls apart after the first blink and clumps of people start forming (no doubt trying to get in-range). When Shaz blinks into one of these clumps, much panic usually ensues, the hate table is populated with more targets, and poor Green has to run all over trying to catch up with Shaz and work harder to get her back. If there's one thing that we can definitely improve on, it's ending the "backing up in panic" thing. I can't stress this enough: you're better off standing still if you're not going to run towards Green because you cannot outrun Shaz or that AoE if she's focused on you.

With the exception of Fomor (NOT starting an argument or encouragement), I believe that everyone has CTRA set up on the system they are using. If they go into the settings, they can set it up so that the game notifies them when they have "stolen" or "gained" the aggro of Shazzrah - and can even choose to play a very annoying, very distinctive sound that will be louder than the sound of battle around them. If this happens to you - RUN TO THE MIDDLE. Every time Shazzrah blinks, DPS should be stopping anyways (proximity and aggrowipe), meaning that Greenbull and/or Alhazad should have no need to run. They will, they are both good tanks, but if the people with CTRA set up the notification and have the "Target's Target" option selected, there should be someway to manage this. Shazzrah is easy, and all that is needed from what I saw was a little practice there. It would just be less sloppy.

• Continuing:
  Golemagg: Perfect fight. The only suggestion I have is that the tank with the puppy to the left should pull it a little further up the hill, almost to the bend as we head up to Domo. This allows Golemagg to be fought a little further uphill, and gives the crowd control aspect of this fight a little more time just in case a puppy or Golemagg gets a little loose.
  Domo: Practice will make perfect. Hopefully Feoler was able to explain to our fearless (and highly competent) leader the "Pull-Counterpull" aspect of the Domo fight, including placement. The 1-4-3 strategy is the best method I have seen yet for handling this fight, and the P-CP makes it much easier to separate the healers and first elite from the last three elites to die. It also makes it a lot easier to condense and focus the Raid's DPS if everyone is in the same location except for the three tank and healing groups on the last three elites.
  Ragnaros: Practice will make perfect. Hopefully Feoler was able to explain to our fearless (and highly competent) leader where the ranged DPS group was supposed to set up as I apparently had us spread too far around the outer ring. Granted, we did this without any Fire Resistance, Buffs or Potions. Some things that will help (which would require a couple people to respec) would be:
  Getting at least one 1320 and 1440 Healthstone Warlock into the raid. The MT could carry the 1200, 1320 and 1440 all at the same time. It's not necessary, but it would help.
  Getting people farming up materials for

Greater Fire Protection Potions. The materials needed per potion are:

1. 1 Elemental Fire (Fire elementals in Un'Goro and Hammerfall)
   
2. 1 Dreamfoil (Not sure where, but I think Azshara and Winterspring...maybe Felwood)
   
3. 1 Crystal Vial
   The raid will need 2 per person, per attempt, per week until most of the raid is into full tier 1 gear and MC weaponry. The potions are taken just before the rogue summons Ragnaros and just as you all converge for dealing with the Sons of Ragnaros.
   Also note, when you make a second attempt at Ragnaros, you need to be very, very careful of your proximity to Ragnaros. He has a very, very large aggro radius. Melee people need to RP walk as close to the edge of the inner ring as possible until they are in position. Ranged people need to get into position as far out of range as they possibly can. It might be best to group up just outside the entrance to his chambers for rebuffing so that people can get into position buffed incase he gets aggro'd early.
   

Overall, I would say that this raid has a very, very solid foundation. Some aspects of the raid, such as the chain-pulling and healing rotation are great and other raids dont do that. The fact that 28 or 29 people took out Lucifron was amazing. The way the raid pulled together and dropped Domo on the second attempt, using a new strategy was impressive. The fact that Ragnaros was down to 61% without any potions or buffs was incredible. The success of this raid is definitely apparent in the members of the raid. They relax, have fun in the core, but they also get the job done. I hope to earn my place among you guys there. I need to run with BBQ a few more weeks because I am pretty close to getting the Onyxia Head Quest due to my LDKP, and I would like to get my DKP balance back to 0 with them (currently in the hole).

My opinion was not solicited and is not necessarily a correct interpretation. Please don't think I am criticizing or condemning your raid or the way you run it. I tend to be a little outspoken, and I wanted to offer my perspective from what I saw as I ran. If what is done in the raid works, there is no reason to change it (the old "if it aint broke..." axiom.) Thanks Maube for letting me tag along, for putting up with my Hank Hill, and for letting me speak my mind. Much appreciated.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Jeroabem/Sabrianica

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

I found this while surfing, and thought it would help out! - Jeroabem

Combat Strategy

• Fire resistance is key to surviving his attacks. Your MT should have at least 300 (315 is recommended with buffs) fire resistance.
  
• Any melee classes should have at least 200.
  
• Any other class should have at the very least 100 (unbuffed), or they won't be around very long. In each case, more fire resistance is better.
  
• Everyone in the raid should use anywhere from 1-3 fire protection potions during the fight to stay alive. Preferred a few seconds before the sons of flame spawn. First one before Ragnaros is summoned, second one when everyone converges.
  
• All ranged DPS (Mages, Hunters, Warlocks) should keep in mind that it is impossible for them to pull aggro from the MT. Ragnaros will always attack players who are in melee range first, regardless of their position on his hatelist. ( So don't hold back on DPS )
  

Ragnaros FR HINT: Head your raid (up to 10 players at time) to LBRS and Mind Control one or more Scarshield Spellbinders (you can find them just at the entrance under the bridge), at this point provide all players with his +83 Fire resistance buff. The buff lasts 60 Minutes, and is on a 30 second cooldown.

Set Up: All melee and close support need to be on the inner ring engaging Ragnaros while he is up. All the healers and ranged support should be on the secondary ring away from Ragnaros. They must also stay away from the lava flows or they will be affected by the lava splashes. Also all players should spread out so that they are not knocked back and damaged when Ragnaros uses his ranged knock back ability. This means that melee should be around Ragnaros generally on the south, west and north parts of the inner ring, and the ranged is on the south and west portions of the outer ring. There are small patches of wall on the outer rings that, when stood directly against will usually prevent Ragnros's random fireballs from knocking you back. 20 seconds before Ragnaros Submerges and spawns Sons of Flame, all melee (With the exception of the main tank, who should stay in melee until Ragnaros submerges to prevent him from magma blasting) should collapse to the southern lip of the outer ring, as to be ready to handle the sons when they spawn. Mages should already be positioned at the collapse point. Mages should conserve their mana so that they have at least 50% left when the first wave of sons spawns.

There are varying strategies on how Ragnaros is to be handled. Some groups go all out damage, getting him down to 30%-40% before the first wave of sons, to be able to kill him before the second. This strategy tends to make for far more casualties, and makes players less likely to survive the sons. The alternative is winning the fight through endurance, rather then all out DPS. All players must make it a priority to keep themselves alive through 2 waves of sons, after which Ragnaros is an easy kill. This puts less stress on the casters and healers. The priority for an endurance fight is not doing damage, it is keeping the entire raid alive, so that the Sons can be accomplished with minimal deaths. There should be no, or at least very few deaths outside of the Sons.By the time the sons spawn, the group should have collapsed to the ring south of Ragnaros. Mana users should be at the very endge of the ring, as to avoid the Son's massaive mana burn aura. Tanks should form a wall in front of the casters and group taunt, mages should then frost nova them in place and AoE them down. Ragnaros will spawn the second all the sons are dead, so it helps to keep one son at very low health chain banished until Ragnaros emerges on his own, to give the raid time to regenerate.

Lastly, from the time you get Domo to summon Ragnaros you have 2 hours to defeat him, after which he submerges. Majordomo Executus will respawn within 2 to 3 hours.

Stage 1: Have your MTs run in and attack, and have all your melee-ers and ranged DPS-ers assist. You have 3 minutes to get Ragnaros' health down as much as possible (The goal is 40% or less, the record I have seen is 31%). Ragnaros will shoot random explosions that knock people into the air (often into the lava) and do a lot of damage, so healers need to be on their toes. Ragnaros also has an AoE knockback ability that he does every 25 seconds. All melee classes except MTs should back out before this happens and then re-engage immediately afterwards.

Stage 2: Ragnaros submerges and 8 "Sons of Flame" come out. They do purely fire-based damage and have an AoE mana burn, so you need to keep them away from your mana-users.The sons spawn from around the spiral that Ragnaros is along the west, north and east side, and then rush south to meet the raid. The sons damage is entirely fire based, so with decent fire resistance you will take very little damage from them.

Control them with warriors, mage frost novas, mage blizzard, perhaps bear tanks, hunter freezing traps and kill them all ( do not banish, there is not enough time. Some guilds do banish once however. ) The Sons should be tanked and banished while one is being dealt with. It is important to always have at least one that is not banished at a time, as sometimes when all the remaining live sons are banished (or otherwise incapacitated) Ragnaros will re-appear. If this happens you are very likely looking at a wipe. Also you must deal with the Sons quickly as Ragnaros will surface after 1 1/2 minutes whether they are dead or not. To accomplish this everyone MUST be assisting one person that is picking targets. If attacks are spread out they will take to long to kill. With all DPS on one Son you should be aiming to drop one every 10 seconds or less.

Ragnaros will come back after 90 seconds or when all sons are dead, whichever happens first. When you are nearing the 90 second point in the fight it is critical that you send the main tank, secondary tank and their healers back to engage Ragnaros when he re-enters combat. If the tank is not there Ragnaros will start throwing Magma blasts. Once the rest of the group has killed any remaining sons they should re-enter combat with Ragnaros.

Stage 3: Same as phase one. You have 3 more minutes before he submerges again for another minute-and-a-half session with the Sons of Flame.

Generally, you want to kill him before the Sons spawn again or else you will probably die. If you don't get him to at least 40% HP before the end of Stage 1, then you probably won't accomplish this goal.

[Kaerfiremane]

"Getting at least one 1320 and 1440 Healthstone Warlock into the raid. The MT could carry the 1200, 1320 and 1440 all at the same time. It's not necessary, but it would help."

This won't help, since they share the same cooldown.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

"Getting at least one 1320 and 1440 Healthstone Warlock into the raid. The MT could carry the 1200, 1320 and 1440 all at the same time. It's not necessary, but it would help."

This won't help, since they share the same cooldown.

They share the same cooldown, yes, but they are in his inventory and there for use. He can alternate them with potions if healing is getting weak. While not mandatory, they would help.