AQ 20 Dkp or not to dkp

[Crikrunner]

((I'd like to open this up for discussion. Chrysala would like us to consider a zero sum dkp for the aq20 runs. Honestly I'm lazy, but if people want this I'd set it up and run it. I'm content with the way loot is now, I wish quest items perhaps went to regulars with faction over others, but trying to do that with the weapon hilts, only letting those with highest factions that want them roll. Mages in particular haven't had much gear drop nor books. Heck the only purples to drop so far were the 2 swords, 1 dagger if i remember right. We've had lots of rogue and priest books and a few of the other classes. If we did zero sum dkp would the Idol + Idol + ring/drape/hilt = one epic in points and books be 1/2 or how would people like to do this? Would we start fresh with say 10 dkp from attendance points, I can track down what people have completed purples so far, but rest of loot I don't remember who got it? Once again I want people to have fun. My idea was to give Ossirian's head to people that have highest attendance with fewest epics/books so far. You get choice of these for turn in. Would that even it out? Also with expansion coming we may not get to ossirian before then, also the books may become null and void once it comes out. Thoughts commments? ))

Since we be a clan of orcs mah first idea was to form a ring after each boss kill, all taht want dah tresah , enter ring clomp each udder, who eber still in ring get tresah. (Saddly this wouldn't work out too well time wise, though it would be fun)

Edited September 19, 2006 by Crikrunner

[Scryll]

((I'd like to open this up for discussion. Chrysala would like us to consider a zero sum dkp for the aq20 runs. Honestly I'm lazy, but if people want this I'd set it up and run it. I'm content with the way loot is now, I wish quest items perhaps went to regulars with faction over others, but trying to do that with the weapon hilts, only letting those with highest factions that want them roll. Mages in particular haven't had much gear drop nor books. Heck the only purples to drop so far were the 2 swords, 1 dagger if i remember right. We've had lots of rogue and priest books and a few of the other classes. If we did zero sum dkp would the Idol + Idol + ring/drape/hilt = one epic in points and books be 1/2 or how would people like to do this? Would we start fresh with say 10 dkp from attendance points, I can track down what people have completed purples so far, but rest of loot I don't remember who got it? Once again I want people to have fun. My idea was to give Ossirian's head to people that have highest attendance with fewest epics/books so far. You get choice of these for turn in. Would that even it out? Also with expansion coming we may not get to ossirian before then, also the books may become null and void once it comes out. Thoughts commments? ))

Since we be a clan of orcs mah first idea was to form a ring after each boss kill, all taht want dah tresah , enter ring clomp each udder, who eber still in ring get tresah. (Saddly this wouldn't work out too well time wise, though it would be fun)

I personally prefer rolling to a DKP system. It's unworkable in the 40-mans, just too many people and chances for abuse, but I think it still works with raids of only 20 people. Of course I'm somewhat biased. I don't particularly like AQ20 but I'm often in Silithus when you guys are running it, and come in to replace people who've had to leave early, which means I benefit from a roll-off system quite a bit more than I would from DKP.

[Corellon]

A DKP system is always a good/bad thing, but depends on the people who have been there the longest. . .

The DKP system would benefit and protect the long time raid members that have been waiting for a certain loot item to drop. But then again I digress, we are not a loot based guild, so if it adds to the fun of the run, I'm all for it. Personally speaking I have a hard time with DKP systems in any respect, due to the fact, I am a casual play and am not in it for the loot, it is a nice bonus to the game, but it's the challenge of the run's and hanging out with friends. If a DKP system was put into place, I would not be against it.

[Chrysalia]

Yes, I opened this discussion. However those that know me know I am not a loot monger. I dont really roll on items often. However IMO spell upgrades are important, not vanity items, they give you an edge in PvP over other members of your class that do not have them, and to lose one to a /random kind of aggravated me this weekend. So rather than whisper whisper whisper, I decided to bring it out into the open. I have nothing to hide. If you decide that DKP is not the answer then we need to figure something out.

I dont mind losing a spell upgrade once, but if it starts happening on a regular basis, where me, as one of two mages on the run keeps losing spell upgrades consistantly (if they even decide to drop), I will be extremely dissastisfied. I love to see people get stuff too, but I also like to get something once in a while.

Like I said, it's not this one specific instance, it just made me think about the future of this raid, since we have many weeks left before we'll be close to done, I'd like to know that Im not going to end up waiting for scraps.

I dont have a problem managing DKP either, I have my own webhost, I can setup and manage it, handling disutes etc etc, if that is the sticking point.

[Maube]

No one mentioned anything about my idea in the other thread - maybe letting regulars - who have been there a number of times (the amount at raid leaders suggestion) get to roll a higher number then those who are first timers - to give them a better chance to earn the loot - but not forcing into a DKP system where fill in's who come in when a regular cant make it cant earn anything save on the offchance everyone passes.

Say book of Fireball drops again -

Chrys has been there 5 times so Chrys gets the upgraded roll of 150

New mage has only been here once - so rolls 100

Chrys has a better shot at winning the roll but there is some aspect of chance involved that the new mage might win something

Also take into account Specs.

Think about this carefully.

If Chrys and Verissi were in AQ and the Frostbolt book drops - would a fire/arcane mage pass to a Frost mage who uses almost entirely frost spells? Or would that mage take the Frostbolt upgrade just because it is an upgrade even if that mage doesnt use Frostbolt as much as a Frostmage would

I know I would pass Fireball to a fire mage as it would be wasted on me - not many occasions I use Fireball effectively and I know it.

Before people start getting up in arms about the book spell upgrades - remember that others might be able to use something more effectively in their class spec and that should come into account as well - Greed is not something the Crusher spirit condones - nor being the first to get this or that item.

Our Crusher warlocks have missed out on their Tier 2 helm 4 times now - but that doesnt stop them from coming to Ony - everything will drop again - in its own time.

[Crikrunner]

Other idea I had was bidding attendance points for an auto win. We'd decide what in weeks of attendance each item is worth. If something drops you really really want, you could spend these points for an auto win, if 2 people tried to use their auto on one item the one with the greater life attendace would get it. something like:

idol 2 weeks

ring/drape/hilt (assuming faction ok) 5 weeks

epics 6 weeks

books 4 weeks

only problem i see with this is people using it all the time and it becomes a non logged dkp then, making it harder to get pug members

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

The "Loot Discussion". The bane of all raids, yet the inevitable outcome. Let me preface anything I am about to say with:

Sabrianica has all the Rogue books and her drap. I would like to get her three rep quests accomplished (Need Ring and Hilt plus idols and scarabs) and the Qiraji Sacrificial Dagger. Then I would like to rotate in my warrior and get his rep quest items and one of the two two handed swords and the books for his class. I told this all to Crik in PM.

Now, my point of view. I don't like the idea of going to a DKP or a attendance points based system for any 20 man, because as Scryll says, it's not totally necessary with a group this small; yet on the other hand, I can totally empathise with where Chrysalia is coming from in regards to books and quest items. If we assign points for attendance, you end up getting a situation where people will horde up points like they do for DKP waiting for that one item to drop. I agree in some aspect with Maube that the people who have been coming the longest, shown the most loyalty to the raid should be given some sort of preferential treatment, but I don't think it should be in the form of a higher rolling cap. (The person who has been there since the first week could roll a 2 out of 150 and the new guy or filler guy could roll a 3 out of 10 and win over the dedicated person.)

The easiest solution that comes to my mind is to treat everything that is quest or class related like Crikrunner is already treating scarabs. I think he said that one week of attendance was roughly worth 1.5 Scarabs. Doing the math backwards, that roughly 30 scarabs collected each week (1.5 Scarabs * 20 people = 30 Scarabs). Using this as a precedent, we could set up the idols like this:

Assuming 3 Scarab Coffers per week, containing 1.5 Idols per on average. That would be 4.5 Idols per week collected. Every 5 weeks of attendance would earn 1 idol. This is about right as I have been with the raid for 12 or 13 weeks and I have won 2 idols (I donated one back to the raid in week 2 or 3).

Class Books, since they are not predictable, could be handled on a "King of the Hill" basis. For example, Chrysalia has attended the raid in 9 weeks, Dirth in 7, Maube in 5. Chrysalia has first preference on the books that might drop as long as he has attended the most raids in his class, with the proviso of "1 Book, 1 quest item, 1 purple per raid" being applied. If more than one Mage book dropped in a given week, Chrysalia would get the first one, then Dirth and so on. Eventually, Chrysalia will have his three books, and Dirth would become the Mage King of the Hill.

Quest Items - Rings, Drapes, Hilts: Again, I think that the raid attendance should show some preference, since someone could farm up there rep to exalted, come on one raid and be Exalted with Cenarion already. Giving the Quest Items to people solely based on rep isn't exactly the fairest method because unlike ZG where you only get Zandalar rep inside the instance, you can farm your way up outside. So what happens if we have people who are tied in preference? /roll off.

As far as epic loots go, it's loot. Yes, I would be a little frustrated to see a dagger I really want going to someone who hasn't been with the raid as long as I have. Yet on the other hand, if all I wanted was the dagger, I could run AQ20 with my own guild which has Kurrinaxx on farm status and just wait for it to drop there. I'm here for the challenge of getting it under our control, then I am here for the upgrades to my characters which will prepare them for the Burning Crusade, then I am here for random purple goodness. That's what makes it fun for me, which is why I keep signing up.

EDIT: After reading Maube's post a second time, there is something to be said for people talking amongst the class themselves to work things out. The danger is the "claiming" loot in advance. Fortunately for me, I am blessed with an amazing counterpart in the Rogue class and we both communicate really, really well. If I asked him to pass on something, I think he would, and I know I would if he made the same request to me on a different item.

Greed is not something the Crusher (or members of this raid) spirit condones - nor being the first to get this or that item. ...Everything will drop again - in its own time.

Please also refer yourself again to the agreement that we all affirmed when we chose to continue raiding with Skullcrushers. Loot-mongering is not something we condone, yet fairness is a principle we all agree on. I hope this discussion continues along that line (fairness).

Edited September 19, 2006 by Jeroabem/Sabrianica

[Chrysalia]

I also do not want to discourage pugs or newcomers to the guild to attend, but I would like to give the regulars some piece of mind. I do think that there is a way for us to manage how the loot is distributed so that no one person, who happens to have lucky dice, can consistantly win.

[Jadeynn]

I'm not sure my opinion is worth much here, considering I'm still fairly new to raiding..but I vote to keep it DKP free. I do understand how frustrated Chrys feels though, and maybe as Maube suggested with the higher roll for the dedicated raiders or something similar should be implemented. It’s a tough one to call.. Should the vets be given preference because they’ve been there from the start? They certainly deserve it, but on the other hand, you have someone that came in to help fill a spot and that person did help down that boss, but because they haven’t been there with us before they don’t have the right to be awarded something that would be useful to them? I’ll be the first to admit if one of my healing spells dropped and say a shadow priest, who would rather play in shadow than heal in the raid rolled and won, yeah.. I’m going to be a tad bit upset. Now if a holy/disc spec priest had joined us, even though they had not been with us before and they won the roll... I may be a bit disappointed but *shrugs* they were there and deserved a shot at it.

I know this probably wasn’t very helpful to you in making your decision Crik, and I certainly feel for ya in having to make it. Just know you have my support no matter what you decide and I want to thank you so much for leading this raid and doing it so well.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Jadeynn

[Maube]

Just ask Kalrash how many times he lost the healing books to Shadow Priests or One Shot Wonder priests =p

[Rhoach]

*votes yes for DKP*

Brevity ftw!

[Waldonnis]

I'd like to reiterate that the presence of a DKP system often does discourage newcomers. I've been on several raids where I couldn't roll on a single thing, possibly for weeks (if I kept going), because the regulars had essentially amassed so much DKP that any newcomers could be overrided on a whim. While I could care less if I got exactly what I wanted in most of those runs, I didn't like not having a chance at all....and DKP sometimes creates that very problem for newcomers. Zero-sum attempts to overcome that, but it has it's own set of problems that cause strife at times.

There are several alternative systems that could and probably should be considered as well, including the one that Maube suggested. Upgrade/sidegrades could be taken into account also, etc (upgrades > sidegrades, aka true need before greed)....there are many options that don't involve extra management work. In all, no system is perfect and any of them is bound to upset someone. Again, I personally do not care what system is put in place for AQ20, if any, since I don't go any longer and have no vested interest...but I do know that implementing a loot system must be considered carefully and fully for the reasons mentioned already.

The one fact of 20/40-person raiding and loot: at least one person per run will be upset about something, no matter how hard you try or what system is in place to help alleviate it.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

How scary is it that I actually agree with multiple points of view at once. Crik, I don't begrudge you your position right now. Like Kytae - however you go, I got your back and will keep signing up until told otherwise.

[chemmy]

It really don't matter to me, i have fun and enjoy ya'lls raid run's, and i will keep signing up, don't matter what system it's going to be, i will be there if my cable don't go out.

[Rhoach]

/love Chemmy!

[Oriahtundra]

Ori no like Da hOle much less another 1 ;p

I like DKP and rolling both to an extent, I dont mind working off what Ive earned and people that have put in the work getting what they deserve. But at the same time RL has bene screwing me outta MC so Im not working off my debt, and that makes me a sad panda...err chicken....

Rollin is always good when yah win and sucks when yah lose( like mage rolled on cap that was upgrade for me in DM and already had Eye of Flame ), though people that are there all the time should get some kinda advantage. I like Maube's idea, I have fun regardless though.

Think is was V i was chattin with, and had a good point. And granted its an unknown time period. But books only gonna hold yah out till the XP

[Houli]

*votes to keep it as it is*

However, I will support whatever system is decided upon!

-Harne-

[revile]

I suggest keeping it like it is, but I am new to the raids so I am down for whatever.

[Guilozak]

Bah! Does it really matter. The only question you need to be asking yourselves is whether or not you have been properly supporting your local priest. Don't foget to tithe! (i.e. 10% of all loot proceeds)

:: ducks and runs back in to his tent ::

Edited September 20, 2006 by Guilozak

[Jadeynn]

*bonks Guilo on the head* silly priest!

[Relikk]

I am down for whatever. Although I would become the new Town Cryer - balling and crying would be heard throughout all of the lands if Buru's Skull Fragment drops and I lost the roll to a new person. However, I am happy with what I have.

Hmm..that town cryer sounds like a good idea. Been thinking about creating a character to perform events and give news in Orgrimar. Also, I have a huge collection of riddles, ones I worked on for months that I could give away prizes to the first person that answered them.

Rel

Edited September 20, 2006 by Relikk

[Rhoach]

Fastest/most effective way to get a real answer from us raiders is to probably start a poll, Crik.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Fastest/most effective way to get a real answer from us raiders is to probably start a poll, Crik.

QFT

[Houli]

qft

quick fast time

queer fix theme

quaint feral tank

quest for tinsel

quality fart taste

....i cant figure it out!

...

al;jkfkdsf

-Harne/Haq-

p.s. ima newb... ask Vrugz

Edited September 22, 2006 by Houli

[Chrysalia]

quoted for truth /wink