SAMMYS NEED STUN!!!

[Depaa]

ok im getting pissed with blizzard with not giving shammys some kind of CC of fear. every class has a cc or fear.

WARLOCKS: they have fear.

DRUIDS: roots and farel have a stun with the bear and cat.

MAGES: in the new patch you have a fire cone fire spell that disorants player and you have the aoe CC and sheep

WARRIORS: you have a few new stuns and slowing affects + with your DPS you can just own in seconds

PRIESTS: you got the fear

PALLYS: hand job of justice and another one that is in talents.

ROGUES: they just stunlock you to death literaly

HUNTERS: you have the dps range but when they get clost you have your fin traps

SHMMYS: they dont have anything but a slowing totem that can be destroyed in seconds. and really is no affect at all. pluse we have no stun at all. i want blizzard to give us a shock that is from the air totem tree that suspends player in the air for 4 secs and they cant do anything. from the TS shammans got the short end of the stick for the patch.

please sing if you agree

and exscuse me for my spelling

[Baracko]

I only have one thing to say...

Put down the bong! *grins*

That is all...

[Crikrunner]

I would only see this a long stun being balanced is if it were the 41 point elemental talent so you'd have to give up good heals and melee ability for it.

While we dont have a stun we can snare with frost shock ( you know that other shock next to earthshock ), heal ( those rarly cast "healing wave" spells what ever that means ), nuke ( that really rarly cast "lightning bolt" unless you're a larper ) or combine all 3 and kite. A shaman's strength is their ability to do all these at the same time. Use space between you and your target to heal/nuke, void space between and target when they want the space. vs a rogue or warrior you have to have a shield out to win, dual wielding/2 handers are for clothies. Just trying to be sarcastically funny, while were not the best at anything we are a hybrid like a druid and can do it all in limited ammounts

[Wolf]

While we're at it, why don't we give rogues kiting ability, the ability to remove dots, vanish that works and ambushes that can't be dodged. Yeah, let's do that

[Depaa]

what i am meaning by all of this is that the enhavce tree is the only tree that is gear based as well as it is a close up tree. what i am trying to say is that the enhavce tree needs to have a CC or stun. the snare suxs because it slasts for so shore of time and no real affectiveness. pluse heals for a enhaced person who dosent have gear that helps healing dosent really work. if you have seen my gear you will understand how im am built and built for. taking agro and kicking ass. for DW i get 4k damage within 5-6 secs. thats with spells. but when im stuned its all over. so i want to stun back so i may heal then dps him back for what he did and baracko you have no idea what it is like in the pvp DW right now. the PvE aspect of DW there is real no need for the CC im just want it for PvP.

[Ghules]

*tapes horns to Depaa's head*

Warstomp! Rawr!

--Ghules

[Depaa]

no for thoughs who have not tryed the TS and who haent tryed the pvp in the TS you dont understand how shammys got shafted. besieds the resto spec. in PVP i get stuned by a pally and 3 shotted not. hunteres can one shot me and i can never get clost to them unless there perocupied with someone elts and its still hard to get them. Warlocks just unstopable. trust me shammans its a world of hear but i try my best to get kill and survive. all i ask is for a stun in the pvp.

[Waldonnis]

I doubt you'll get a stun, given shamans' kiting abilities. Hunters are actually in the same boat to a certain extent, as it's quite touchy as to when you can drop a trap currently and barring a feign/trap macro, you only really have concussive shot/cheetah/pray (this is changing, but not sure if it's for the better).

Also, it's really tough to compare a shaman to most of the other stun-oriented classes. For many of the common "stun" classes, those are actually talent specs that lead to so many stuns so frequently...and those that have a few to choose from have no ability to kite whatsoever. Top that off with the power of totems that provide crowd control and powerful effects as well as buying time to do more damage (while the opponent spends GCD cycles destroying totems).

Lastly, you really can't compare crowd control like polymorph and fear to stuns, since both of the former can be countered by many classes, while stuns cannot. People complain about fear, but ultimately, stun effects are the only things that cannot be really counteracted by any other than mages with blink or the talent-obtained ice block.

Hunters and other classes may be getting a bit too much for right now (from what I hear, hunter dps is insane in BC), but I expect some adjustments over time. Also, bear in mind that in Blizzard's designs, PvP is not a one-on-one battle/duel...totems are huge in group PvP, as well as shaman burst dps, so the lack of a stun really isn't something that tops the list considering that they believe that you should have enough variety around you to get things done regardless.

Frankly, I no longer play a shaman, so maybe a stun would be good for the class, but I don't necessarily see it is a "must have". It's useless in higher-end PvE (like so much other crowd control) and there's hardly a lack of rogues about in PvP to really leave me wanting for MORE stuns. If anything, I'd like to see shaman abilities fill out more for PvE and be more useful than just healbot duties (same goes for all hybrid classes)...and so that it's tougher to choose between a paladin and a shaman for raiding (right now, it's hands-down paladin in a skill-for-skill comparison, although I'm going to love having both around).

[Relikk]

I did an enormous amount of pvp over the last week. These are the classes I have the most difficulty with: Mages, Priests, Warlocks and bubbledins (mainly because pallys live long enough so that his backup arrives).

I still think the best class to pvp with is the shaman, they can beat any class with ease in a 1vs1 fight, except for rogues who get the stunlock thing going (and no class survives that).

I get annoyed too, I easily remember the many times when I was stunned silly until dead. The fact remains - people cannot handle losing, and they remember their loses and how it happened, and they scream "unfair!". I too think it's unfair when I am kited by a shaman, or when they know they are fighting me to put up a thorn kit knowing full well how badly that will hurt me because I am one of the few who want to duel wield instead of using a big 2hander.

I still cringe if a mage finds me alone guarding a flag in Alterac Valley, the outcome is predictable. Perhaps I need to learn more in order to beat a mage, but right now, an expert mage just flat out owns my ass.

I think you should worry about how your class does overall and try it out before saying anything. Their stun might be the only thing that gives them any hope of chance against a shaman. Shamans have been at the top of the pvp ladder for a long time.

Let's see how this all pans out first, then make judgements.

Rel

[Waldonnis]

The fact remains - people cannot handle losing, and they remember their loses and how it happened, and they scream "unfair!".

QFT. I read the PvP forums religiously and that's pretty much all that I ever see. It's become comic to watch and terribly predictable, but overall, I think that a tenuous balance has been achieved, with every class complaining about at least one other.

I still cringe if a mage finds me alone guarding a flag in Alterac Valley, the outcome is predictable. Perhaps I need to learn more in order to beat a mage, but right now, an expert mage just flat out owns my ass.

Most mage vs. warrior fights will go predictably in the mage's favour with few exceptions. We pretty much own protection warriors, but other builds can be tough to beat if they know our normal tactics. As much as I disliked him in character, Gothalion had my number nearly every single time (although he had to result to using engineering most of the time to beat me)...and I do give credit to the other warriors that have learned more about mages than I'll probably ever realise. If you'd like, I can help offer tips against mages (since most do the same exact thing every time), but the fight is still heavily tilted in their favour since they're designed to be strong against warriors.

I think you should worry about how your class does overall and try it out before saying anything. Their stun might be the only thing that gives them any hope of chance against a shaman. Shamans have been at the top of the pvp ladder for a long time.

There are no other classes that are more commonly judged as deciding factors in PvP than warlocks and shaman. Some of this is due to the whiny nature of the PvP forums and player base when they lose, but it's not incorrect...both have abilities that other classes lack completely. Fear is obvious in warlocks' case, but shaman spell interrupts are HUGE and something that many, many other classes lack. Couple that with the ability to heal, windfury, and the host of other abilities granted by totems (which admittedly need some tweaking), shaman is a very strong class. Sure, against other ranged classes, you will be weak, but you're inherently more mobile than most other casting classes and pack a serious burst-damage punch. Rather than focusing on the negatives, try to look at the positives of the class and use them to your advantage.

Hell, I'd love to do as much burst damage and be as survivable as a shaman can with Verissi, but I know that what I sacrifice in those categories, I gain in mana efficiency and crowd control. With Tobalaya, I am very squishy and have limited range, but make up for it in burst damage and stuns. Kelani is weak in close-range melee, but strong in kiting/ranged combat...and so forth. Such are the tradeoffs we all make. If we gave shaman plate, stuns, more efficient healing, better totems, and increased their damage output, why would anyone want to roll any other class? On any given day, I see shaman (and other classes) asking for buffs to their weakest points, but in the end, they never get them...it's just something we all have to live with.

Oh, and face a pre-BC marksman hunter as a mage sometime...even with ice barrier up, if they have range, I will likely (and often am) two-shotted....so nothing's really changed for me....and I'm fine with that.

[Oriahtundra]

DRUIDS: roots and farel have a stun with the bear and cat.

*snicker*

Least you have an interrupt even few seconds. Only classes roots is really effective on is warriors and FF'ed rogues(which i think they can vanish out of anything coming in BC) and of course if we're indoor..... meh Anything else can bomb/fear/CC you from it or dispell it for a negligible amount of mana

Bear stun if you have enough rage and your cooldown is up. Cat stun is only for an opener or for any decent amount of time has to have 5 combo points.

But did forget bout Cyclone(which last i read is not dispellable thank god) but I wanna be able to drop OMGWTF crazy 4k SF crits on em while they are CCed like locks can

But by all means if you find an intelligent thought out thread with evidence that someone posted about Druids being OP, please link it to me. I'm gonna print it out and frame it on the wall

[Crikrunner]

Another fact to consider depaa unless i miss read your post is yes shaman's 41 talents may be weaker than other classes, but the 61-70 spells and abilities aren't out yet so perhaps these will bring more power to the shaman? Earth Elemental, Fire elemental cant wait to see how these work out

[Depaa]

very true Crickrunner. i thank all for the responces but we still need something to help with the totems. ill bring a new topic that the totem system is really fed up and needs to be really revamed and thought over more. pluse i still stand by my side with the CC for the pvp in enhancement tree. because that is a class were you cant really kite and stuff its more of a battle close combate styal. elimental is more distance and kiting and resto is like a pally staying alive long enugh to ware out the other player and give a final blow. the enhance needs something just something thats all. i know not all think that we shammans need it but sometimes there is a fight were i know a CC would of helped for the most part. but over all i do like all the new changes and im happy. its like a good thing but you want more you know. thats all. pluse im in a guild on the TS that has mostly shammys and they all think the smae that we need a cc and i was the one who brought up the topic. some one elts brought up the totem system ad that it should be fixed. we are hybrid but it shuld be balenced to the tree that ou choose not ballence to all three at once.

[Baracko]

Sadly, Crik, all reports of the elementals ( AND I MEAN ALL! ) have labeled them completely useless. The shields are getting rave reviews, however, as is shamanistic rage. Judging by the numbers being slung, I think that we are in for a slight nerf, to be honest.

I, for one, was often very frustrated as a shaman in PvP. I never felt that we were good for much other than flag running. I often read the boards, listened to other shaman' success, and said "What am I doing wrong?". The class cant be that bad, though... take a look at the fear that Zorrander brought to the alliance in our old pvp days. I cant think of a more effective shaman... especially against multiple foes.

The truth is that PvP is kinda like chess: The person who deals first blood often has the advantage, and the support you have around you makes a big difference. Example: when fighting in the middle of WSG, put down your GoA totem and EB totem and see what the rogues do to the competition.

Shaman are far from weak, we just dont play them the best way all the time.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Baracko

[Scryll]

Only classes roots is really effective on is warriors and FF'ed rogues(which i think they can vanish out of anything coming in BC)

At present, using vanish breaks the root, even when we're FFed. Blizzard apparently considers this a bug and has changed it so that being FFed prevents us from activating vanish at all, rather than just preventing us from entering stealth. So if you FF us, we will no longer be able to break your root unless we have points in improved sprint and elect to blow that 5-minute cooldown instead. Rogues have been screaming bloody murder about that change and it might get changed back, I don't know. CLoS might also enable us to get rid of roots once we hit 66 and can train it, and it will remove FF at the same time. Our other nice anti-root ability is the new 41-point Shadowstep talent in the Subtelty tree and it won't work with a FF roots because we need to be stealthed to use it. It won't break the root either, it will just move us and the root to right behind you *Helllooo... :backstab:*

Sadly, Crik, all reports of the elementals ( AND I MEAN ALL! ) have labeled them completely useless. The shields are getting rave reviews, however, as is shamanistic rage. Judging by the numbers being slung, I think that we are in for a slight nerf, to be honest.

I hadn't really taken a look at your talents before. Now Crik has brought the subject up and I've taken a good long look at that Earth Shield, and it's just making me cringe.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Scryll

[Houli]

if you are rooted... you wont be stealthed.

[Scryll]

That last root comment of mine was referencing the entire category of roots, not just the druidic Entangling Roots spell. There are several other roots in the game which don't necessarily keep us in combat. It's possible for to Shadowstep to a mage who has frost nova'd us, for example.

[Depaa]

For the most part the earthen sheild is great but in a way Blizzard is making the push to make shammys a healer again. I dont what to be a healer. by meaning this is that if you want to survive agains any class be a resto shammy. i have done resto in the TS because i want to see all aspects of the shammans trees. i hacve gone in a few instances and seen that i can go against 3-4 eliets in the 50-s and still survive. rogues cant touch me nore anyonther class. but i dont want to be a healer. i want to DPS with DW thats all. but the thing is you can tell that you do need a stun to heal for a sec. to give you a fighting chance. we can kite but we cant kite if you are a person who uses DW for damage. elimental class can kite and healing can just survive like no other. i can get a shammy that is heaing down to 10% and i would loose. to waldonnises comment that you cant compare a polly or a fear to a tun you can in a way. they give you a first attack baisis. and thats all you need to have the advanteg over someone. the thing is that we are a class that is incomplete because we have some totems that should not be a totem or within the system or needs to be revamed. we cant choose a tree and be powerfull in it like a druid can. we are hybrid but we need to be able t choose the class tree and be powerfull in it and have perks to it.

[Waldonnis]

...but where is the sacrifice if you had what you wanted? If you can dps as well or better than the other talent trees AND kite reasonably (along with healing, which I remind you most other classes cannot do AT ALL), there needs to be something given up...and the lack of a stun is what appears to be it. For resto, stun apparently isn't needed due to survivability despite lower melee dps, elemental can kite very well (buying them distance at the cost of some healing ability and melee dps), and enhance can dual-wield with higher melee dps at the cost of reduced kiting and healing opportunity. Honestly, this sounds exactly like it should be and how it effectively functions for druids, who only really have stuns because we have to shift forms to do anything.

Let's suppose you had a stun...what would be the most likely use of it? Purportedly, it would be to heal, but most would use it offensively, much like warlocks use deathcoil (FREQUENT complaints about using that one offensively). Seriously, how many shaman would even bother healing, instead using a stun to continue dps unfettered? My bet would be all of them, adding to the already broken stun/fear/poly system that Blizzard has to juggle PvE-PvP wise. I always hate to take this tact or arguments, but it sounds like you want a rogue damage-wise that can also heal and cast, which is totally unrealistic. Shaman are already tough to beat for most classes...making one tree more attractive with little sacrifice would make the other two worthless, as it would make rolling any other class worthless.

To be totally honest, mage is lacking in a bunch of categories, but there's little I or anyone else can do to change it, so I play my game around what I perceive to be weak spots in the design. I think this is another one of those cases where a class could and probably should be more complete, but just isn't (frequent problem with hybrids in general...ask any druid). I do totally agree about the totem system and that it needs some serious work to be more viable, but shaman are hardly crippled or useless if they have two of three talent trees that are entirely viable (mages have two...arcane is worthless without frost or fire) and a third that has some specialised applications that can be augmented by adding points into one of the others as well.

[Depaa]

i agree with you Waldonnis but this thing is that i would not just use the stunn for offence only. for th most part i would use it agains Pallys becuase they stun me and i get brought down in health to 10% and i want to stunn tehm back to heal and do some dps befor they get out of the stun. hunters i want to stun so i can have a chance to get close enugh befor they kill me with a 3k shot. mages so they cant do a fin 5-7k fire ball or a 2k frost bolt. druids so they cant run like most of the time when they start loosing. warriors so i can get them down and they can do 3k exicutes. rogues so i can counter there tunlocks and heal and so i can get some distance. prists its all offencive. warlocks so i can stop there dots and get them down and to help the team in pvp. i wouls youe the stun in WSG to stop the enimy from killing our flag carrier and to stop and kill there flag carrier. thats what i would do. pluse i would say that the stun be on a 20sec or 30 sec timer thats what i would have on on it. not like a 6 sec timer like all the other shock spells. be in moderation. but for the most part i do agree with you Waldonnis. all classes do need to be worked on. but till then I WANT A STUN LOL

[Oriahtundra]

druids so they cant run like most of the time when they start loosing.

*roffle* Gotta love when one of your strengths is being able to run away ROFL. Actually Pally has a skill now that negates that too, no shifting out the movement debuff ...NERF PALLIES!!

[Depaa]

thats what im talking about Oriah man you hit that one right in the dot. Pallys ore to Fing powerfull now. there better than shammys because they have a strong offence now and there not supost to be offence.

[Depaa]

OK here is what i have gotten form people in the test server for stuns. you can agree or disagree i dont care. but for the most part all classes but shammys think that we need a stun. some other friends that are not shammys agree. and alot of people on the test server that for the most part that dont have a shammy say they want shammys to be buffed more kuz we got the short end of the fin ###### stick. exscuse me language.

Wind Shock

will knouck down player or take the wind out of him and stuns for 4 secs.

450 mana.

15sec CD

normal shock range

Twister Totem.

summons a totem that causes a tornado within 5 secs. enimys within the totems range will be stuned for 4 secs.

500 mana

15 yards

2 min CD

Earth Grab

grabs aponent and pulls into the ground while laughing at him/her and stuns for 5 secs. chance of causing 600 nature damage

600 mana

normal shock range

30 sec CD

Totem Smack Down

totem that is already summond will be picked up and thrown at aponent knocking him/her our for 5 secs, causing 300 damage.

250 mana

25 yard range throw

40 sec cool down.

Earthquake totem

causes all enimys in are to be stund from trmmors in the ground. stuns for 6 secs. chance to cause 700 damage from falling in the ground

950 mana

40 yards

5 min cooldown

some of them are my ideas and some are others. really i think from this disition we need something from all of this. you will want a shammy having a stun when this patch comes out. youll hate pallys, warlocks, and hunters in the pvp if your a pvp person. really i cant stand hunters 3k shots and critting every shot to every other shot. give me your opin of all of the ideas for shocks ill put up later when i get more of them from people on the TS. PEACE!!

[Oriahtundra]

Twister Totem.

summons a totem that causes a tornado within 5 secs. enimys within the totems range will be stuned for 4 secs.

500 mana

15 yards

2 min CD

Sounds liek Cyclone but of course you can dmg people in normal stuns(guess the banish effect isnt bad though)

[Depaa]

well im trying to get mostly a air attack because we dont have one in our armory of things. i know its close to your speel for druids but more of a stunn than a slow down affect.