Changes to the Karazhan Raid

[Calendar]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to post this to advise you all of a shift in scheduling for my Karazhan raid. Due to recent attendance issues and roster changes, my Karazhan raid has become totally unmanageable. Summer weekends are just not the ideal time to have people stay indoors and play WoW. It's impossible for me to keep track of everyone's changing schedule week after week in the hopes of putting together a well balanced group. This is aggravated by the fact that many people refuse to use the sign up pages or do not update their status.

However, my love for raiding is too strong for me abandon Karazhan all together, so I'll be changing the time and dates to the following:

Thursdays 7:00pm to 10:00pm

Mondays 7:00pm to 10:00pm

• Attendance marks will be maintained
  
• Roster positions will be reserved for regulars (provided they can make the new time slots)
  
• If you can't make it on weekdays, please advise Rhoach since he may choose to pursuit the raid during weekends
  

I expect of course to be losing a few good players because of this change, I feel really bad about this but it's simply impossible to accommodate everyone all the time.

• If you've had any interest in the past in coming to Karazhan with us PLEASE SIGN UP!
  
• If you can only make 1 of the scheduled days PLEASE SIGN UP and let me know!
  
• If you can't attend regularly and would like to be a replacement player PLEASE SIGN UP when you can and let me know!
  

If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask,

Cal

P.S: This forum post is an extended version of the mail I sent to most of our Karazhan raiders.

[Scryll]

I think it should be noted that Vendes' Kara group is also planning on running Thursdays, Cal.

[Kailand]

That shouldn't make a diffence, as people get raid ID'd anyways, so there can't be people that do both anyways (except maybe on Alts).

[Rhoach]

Just an fyi for everyone, this move was made without my consultation or consent. Neither of these days work for me, and Harne and I are going to keep running the weekend raid. I will start a separate raid on the signup page after this weekend's karazhan, so whoever wants to keep running on the weekends, please feel free to sign up and do so.

Edited May 11, 2007 by Rhoach

[Vendes]

Ok...so this is really annoying!

I work my butt off trying to get people interested in a weekday raid and can't seem to get any crushers involved (aside from Yuzuki - thanks by the way ) and now you guys are gonna make it even harder for me? No one was doing a weekday raid, so I step up to do it...and *now* you are going to make one? So now there are are gonna be 3 raids going on? There is no room for replacements! For instance, I had healers cancel on me after we made sure everyone could come...I already am having trouble filling the spots, and there is only one raid going. You started your raid on the weekends...why don't you leave it be and let those that want to go on the weekdays join my raid? Bah!

Edited May 11, 2007 by Vendes

[Rhoach]

Ok...so this is really annoying!

I work my butt off trying to get people interested in a weekday raid and can't seem to get any crushers involved (aside from Yuzuki - thanks by the way ) and now you guys are gonna make it even harder for me? No one was doing a weekday raid, so I step up to do it...and *now* you are going to make one? So now there are are gonna be 3 raids going on? There is no room for replacements! For instance, I had healers cancel on me after we made sure everyone could come...I already am having trouble filling the spots, and there is only one raid going. You started your raid on the weekends...why don't you leave it be and let those that want to go on the weekdays join my raid? Bah!

See my above post, Vendes...

[Waldonnis]

Ah the joys of running raids....time conflicts, attendance problems...and that's before anyone steps into an instance

Verissi's first rule of being a raid leader/organiser:

DON'T TAKE ANY OF IT PERSONALLY

There will always be raids on the same days, times, and places. There will also always be people that just don't show up or cancel despite reassurances that they can make it. None of these things are done on purpose to screw with anyone in particular, they just happen and shouldn't cause bad feelings or stress. Barring having a formal raid schedule that's dictated by a GM or similar rank, it's just not always feasible to plan raids so they don't overlap in either attendance or time slots. Existing raids frequently reschedule to accomodate their regular attendees' schedules, which theoretically shouldn't impact other raids, but does hurt the pool of "alternates"/attendees for newly-formed raids...such is the way of things and something to consider for every raid leader. Leading a raid sucks, always has and always will. It's a ton of work with little reward and requires some pretty thick skin at times.

Since I (nor any other elder that I'm aware of) want to dictate a raiding schedule, we generally ask that each raid leader is considerate of each other when planning their raids AND that the participants in those raids don't "overbook themselves" in order to hedge their proverbial bets (don't sign up for two raids at the same time slot or if you cannot attend both due to raid id conflicts).

I understand your frustration, Vendes, as I've run into past problems with scheduling and had to make some hard decisions (putting off entry into BWL for an extra month or more wasn't popular, but it was necessary to avoid overcommitting the attendees and putting some strain on attendance in other raids). I encourage the current (and any prospective) Karazhan raid leaders to get together for a brief chat soon to iron out what appears to be a growing scheduling problem and to at least clear the air. I don't like seeing messages that reflect frustration when I know this can all be worked out easily...we're all friends here I'd be happy to sit in on the chat if moderation is needed, but I'm confident it won't be necessary

Incidentally, since Calendar is the raiding warmonger, perhaps this discussion will lead to establishing some guidelines for new raid formation and rescheduling of existing raids...*nudge nudge*

[Ghules]

*puts the drama llama into a sleeper hold before it starts*

I'm sure no ill intent was meant by moving raid schedules around. *Everyone* was having a problem with signups and attendence.

We are a Clan of varied schedules and this can lead to some confusion and challenges with making any sort of raid/group much less a weekly one.

That being said there will *never* be any schedule that's 100% perfect for everyone.

For example, I work overnight. On the nights I work I have to leave for work during what would be peak time for a raid. My off days are during the later part of the week, not the weekend. This seriously limits the number of raids I can attend, as most are incompatible with my schedule.

Do I like to raid/heroics? Yes

Do I want to raid/heroics more? Yes

Does my schedule fit with the rest of the waking world? No, and I accept that.

I love the Crushers, and I don't like the thought of transferring to an Oceanic server to raid with an Aussie guild, so I work with the options I have, even it it means just attending one run a week, or even giving my spot up to someone that can make it all the scheduled times instead of just one day.

I'm just one person and just *one* example of the sheer bedlam that organizing these these things can be.

Leading even the best raid is herding cats.

The best you can do is try to mitigate as many scheduling factors as possible and hope for the best. Which I think is what all the raid leaders have been trying to do.

If there are still hurt feelings or toes stepped on then the only way to resolve that is for all the raid leaders to just sit down and talk it over all at once.

[Tainish]

*puts the drama llama into a sleeper hold before it starts*

Is the drama llama sleeper hold a variation of the camel clutch?

[Jadeynn]

Ok...so this is really annoying!

I work my butt off trying to get people interested in a weekday raid and can't seem to get any crushers involved (aside from Yuzuki - thanks by the way ) and now you guys are gonna make it even harder for me? No one was doing a weekday raid, so I step up to do it...and *now* you are going to make one? So now there are are gonna be 3 raids going on? There is no room for replacements! For instance, I had healers cancel on me after we made sure everyone could come...I already am having trouble filling the spots, and there is only one raid going. You started your raid on the weekends...why don't you leave it be and let those that want to go on the weekdays join my raid? Bah!

I understand your frustration Vendes but did you consider perhaps.. speaking with Cal in whispers about this? Think about maybe even combining the 2 raids into one? help the both of you at once.

[Kailand]

It would be easier to get Kara raid groups together if blizzard would minimize the level of healing required - 3 specced healers is too much to ask for except in the most populous raiding guilds, and alot of healers available which are not in kara raids already - no offence meant by this - are sub par healers used to being heal bots, and not paying attention to thier surroundings, which is required in kara.

Calendars raid fell apart due to a problem of getting healers that could show up reliably on the weekend, compounded with problem of people not being able to show up due to normal summer time weekend events. Last time we went into karazhan half of our group was no shows and had to be replaced including healers. Attendance issues seem to be getting worse than better, and I know for myself, it's frustrating to have made so much progress, and then the next week not being able to even make it half as far due to no shows, and then waiting an hour or so trying to get substitutes. I believe this is one of the reason's Baracko's raid fell apart.

I know that Calendar won't try to 'poach' any of your healers, and he should be told off if he did. Also it should be noted that the raids are not in the same time slots - Arinelles is tuesday and thursday(/friday?), and Calendar wants to move his to thursday and monday. In effect your raid is before his raid in the schedule so there shouldn't be any problems along those lines.

As for your comment mentioning you only have 2 crushers in your raid, Calendar only has 5 crushers per day that show up. Maybe the solution for creating an 'all crusher' raid is to cancel the existing ones and figure out who is now keyed, if they are interested in coming which days they would be available, and start a new one - or two depending on how classes/specs/peoples commitments line up.

Also your comment about us joining your raid if you want - you already have a more or less full roster, so where are the spots going to be for those that prefer weekday timeslots to go. None of use really want to kick out your current members, nor should you as a raid leader feel compelled to take us either. As for the pool for alts - nobody want to be an alt, they will remain an alt until they find their own Kara raid - and so the pool of alts (especially healers) is non existant.

I'm sure Calendar will make his response to this thread soon, and I look forward to his addressing your concerns.

**edited to add some more things

Edited May 11, 2007 by Kailand

[Calendar]

Hi All,

When I started this thread, it was with the intent of improving the raid attendance within my own group of raiders. Since the start I've been having a HUGE amount of difficulty getting the necessary people to join and consistently come on weekends. The problem has since then worsened considerably. Being the sole responsible roster manager I could no longer bare the burden of juggling people around week after week. I cannot fathom how a single 10-man raid should take up twice the time in preparation than it does in actual game play.

I have often stated my desire to move this raid to weekdays, to deal with both the shortage of people and the summer weekends. With the recent lost of a main healer, a mage as well as other people becoming unreliable at best, I thought the time had come to make the switch. I'm sorry Rhoach for having to do this, but I can no longer keep up the role I had before. I'm aware that some people have scheduling problems, and I truly feel sorry for them, but if this raid is to be even remotely successful I simply cannot think of any other way of doing this.

It was NEVER in my intention to steal people from your raid Vendes (or anyone else’s), whether it was regulars or replacements. My intentions were to make another short recruitment run and try to find people to fill in the gaps. I know that the Clan has a limited number raiders, it was not my intent to hog them all. At least half of my raid has been composed of different guilds; I did not have any issues continuing along this route.

After all these explanations however, I have notice that my announcement have made quite a few people visibly upset. So I'm going to nip this in the butt now before it goes any further and officially declare my resignation as a Skullcrusher Karazhan raid leader. Since I can no longer cope with the increasing demands of weekend raiding and shifting this raid to weekdays is causing too many problems, I will postpone my role until a more opportune time for raiding presents itself.

We are a family, I care a lot about the Clan’s integrity and so I will put the Clan’s needs before my own. I acknowledge my current position as a Warmonger and will accept any consequence deemed appropriate by the Elders in response to my current actions.

Cal

In short:

- Too people have dropped out or simply do not show up at the weekend raid

- I tried changing the dates for week days but it seems to have cause more problems than anything else

- I’m resigning as raid leader for the moment until better opportunities present themselves

- I love the Clan so very much and will work on making the bonds between us stronger

[Rhoach]

I'll try to keep the ball rolling in the meanwhile. Feel free to join us whenever we raid, Cal.

[Volonazra]

Let us just take a deep breath and look at what is going on. There is no raid stealing going on. There is no need to cancel plans. There are (and will always be) differing availability, goals and demands for everyone.

We can, and will, work around everyone's needs and wants. But to do that we must be patient, tolerant, and understanding of each other. Let us remain mature, humble, and willing to compromise so everyone benefits.

[Vendes]

I am in no way mad, just frustrated. I have never been good at getting my feeling out in writing. I don't think you are going to "steal" people from my raid in any way - most of those in my raid aren't crushers at all, none showed any interest no matter how much I tried. I do feel bad for Rho though since you will be splitting the weekend raid in half and didn't even inform him. So yes, maybe I shouldn't have said some things and apparently I pissed some people off in saying them. I didn't know what I said should have been done in whispers because I honestly didn't know that what I said was gonna have the impact that it did. .