Warrior tank discussion

[Corellon]

I have mainly done most of my configuring of Smed from what I see and what I want to be able to do. The warrior forums on WoW are kinda biased but they do make some valid points http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...81044&sid=1 I read most of this thread and found some things out that have never been told to me or shared.

One of the main points for tanks, is how to open the fight and how to gain agro fast efficently and effectively without getting other members of the party killed.

I got told that I shouldn't open with taunt, that I should open with sheild slam, revenge, or heroic strike. Well. . . I've tried that on numerous occasions and this seems to lead to the dark side of tanking. Ok so I have blown my rage button, now what? Sunders have to happen, but at what point and what is more effective. There seem to be alot of ways to do this but I would like to hear it from other tanks, as well as, what fury spec and arms spec does for you, what ever kind of warrior you are. This is not just for me, it's for everyone.

This is completely open to talk about and to make suggestions, nothing is stupid or wrong, it's just what works for each of the warriors in the guild.

[Kailand]

While tanking I open up with shield slam, and use it anytime it is up, and in between I sunder and revenge until I have a stack of 5 sunders up and the switch between devestate, revenge and sheild slam, throwing in mitigation abilities (shield block, thunderclap, demoralizing shout) when appropriate. if I have excess rage I will toss in heroic strikes. I found that with my slow (2.2 speed) weapon, devestate generates more threat than heroic strike, but the general consensus is that with a fast weapon you want to ignore devestate except for sunder refreshes, and use heroic strike. As a tanking prot warrior sheild slam is the highest threat generation ability, and revenge is the most rage efficient threat generation, and devestate/heroic strike are great rage dumps. A stack of 5 sunders also increases the threat of your threat generation abilities due to the increased damage.

My experiments with taunt have shown me that it only is useful if somebody else already has agro - it doesn't make sure you keep agro if used preemptively. In trash encounters where they don't hit hard, I usually get rage starved, so I will let somebody grab agro and conserve my rage, then using taunt, shield slam, heroic strike to get agro on the mob and go from there. if the DPS is paying attention to threat, then I will just use revenge/sunder on trash.

For soloing, I like using a slow two-handed weapon and use a slam spam - the slower the weapon, the higher DPS increase you will see. If I'm worried about survivability, I will use strength gear, with sword and shield for solo DPSing (I use the sporregar rep shield, lots of strength on it, and sufficient armor). I find for grinding, that dual wield also works as long as the mobs are low enough level that I don't miss too often and just spam devestate, and build up rage on autoattack. Since devestate is an instant, and it doesn't reset the autoattack counter, this is an easy way to boost DPS. Heroic strike is ok, but it only applies to the next auto attack, and so you actually end up with both less rage, and less DPS than devestate spamming. Against casters, I always use sword and shield (spell reflect FTW!)

As for stats, I have been playing around with some math, and for pure survivability, I found out that 6 stam > 4 Def > 4 dodge > 4 parry > 4 agi > 4 block rating. Personally I view block rating as a agro stat since it helps with rage generation (getting hit), but it does help prevent crushing blows. I haven't played around with exact ratios, but it does depend somewhat on gearing. As for agro generation, agi > Shield block value > strength > hit. And of course a higher DPS weapon will generate more threat and rage. Gemming gear I tend to follow the socket colour, since it tends to balance out my stats that way, as opposed to what alot of tanks do and just stack +12 stam gems. I.E. a yellow socket gets a +4 def/ +6 stam, a red socket gets a +4 agi / +6 stam (leaning towards the +8 dodge gem though), and blue always gets a +12 stam. On DPS gear I tend to stack strength over anything else.

Anyways thats the way I play my warrior.

[Calendar]

Well here my two cents I guess,

Start of fight:

Bloodrage is likely the single most important skill you can use when you start tanking. Right after Bloodrage I’ll usually throw in a sunder or two, the reason being that rage will take some time to accumulate before having enough to Shield Slam. The two skills I spam as often as I can are Revenge and Shield Slam. Revenge cannot really be controlled; I use it when I can, it’s more important at the start of a fight. Shield slam on the other hand depends on the rage generation rate for a particular mob; some mobs hit harder, others hit faster. Whenever you use another skill you increasing the time between Shield Slams. So if I had to write a concrete order in which I use my skills I’d probably have something close to:

Bloodrage

Sunder

Revenge

Sunder

Shield Slam

Sunder

Revenge

Sunder

Shield Slam

Sunder

Revenge

Devastate

Shield Slam

…

This isn’t always the same, like I said, it depends A LOT on rage generation! (e.g speed and amount of damage incurred, gear level, stats, etc).

Taunt:

I’d have to agree with the fact that Taunt isn’t always the best way to start a fight. Taunt will immediately bump your threat level to the top of the meter, so if you’re just starting a fight that level probably isn’t very high. Here are situations I’m most likely to be using taunt:

- Taunt a mob BEFORE breaking an ice trap. Hunter traps generate aggro and unless you’re going to break the trap using a high damage shield slam, the mob will likely run straight for the hunter.

- Taunt a mob BEFORE breaking a shackle. This depends on how long the mob’s been sitting there. If the battle has been going on for a long time than healers may have accumulate significant amounts of threat, making it hard to gain immediate aggro.

- Taunt when you’ve lost aggro to a successive crit string from a DPSer. Some DPS classes crit A LOT. Multiple SUCCESSIVE critical strikes will pull aggro REGARDLESS OF THE PERSON’S CURRENT THREAT. Depending on the damage and the number of crits, you can typically pull the mob back with a few hits/typical skills. To be on the safe side I will usually taunt. Successive critical strikes can be difficult to control for some classes, it’s their responsibility to WAIT a bit after they’ve had a few critical strikes.

- Taunt whenever you’ve lost aggro due a SMALLER RATE OF THREAT GENERATION. Threat shouldn’t be interpreted as a static measure; it should be seen as a rate (e.g threat/sec). Doesn’t matter how long you started tanking before DPSers got on, if a DPSer has a higher threat generation rate they’ll eventually pull the mob away from you. Taunt in this case isn’t used to save that person; it’s used to give that individual a second chance to regulate their threat rate before they die.

In the end, taunt is mostly an “Oh ######!” button. It’ll never guarantee you aggro for any extended period of time.

Damage Mitigation:

Damage mitigation skills depend a lot on your gear level and the mob you’re fighting. At the start of Karazhan this was more important to me; now I barely take notice. However, mobs like Gruul, mitigation will always be important. In my opinion Shield Block is likely the single most important mitigation skill. It allows you to not only reduce damage to yourself but practically eliminates the chance of getting a crushing blow. In the cases where mitigation is an important factor I typically spam this skill (this is somewhat dependent on other factors as well, since spamming isn’t always necessary). Thunderclap would probably the next most important followed by the Demoralizing Shout.

I NEVER sacrifice mitigation skills for rage generating skills. Even if this means NO mitigation is performed at the start of the fight. Mitigation skills produce very little aggro, so you need to make sure you’re ahead enough from everyone else before you use them.

Other skills:

Heroic Strike:

In some situations I will gain TONS rage for whatever reason; either lots of damage was incurred, I’m hitting the mob for excessive amounts of damage or all my Sunders/Mitigation skills are active. In these cases Heroic Strike is awesome since it'll generate plenty of threat with free rage. It does not however have the added benefits that Sunders have, notably the reduction in armour. This side effect of Sunders makes it more appealing for the rest of the raid. In my opinion the use of a slower or faster weapon coupled with the use of Devastate or Heroic Strike will not significantly impact your threat generation. Basically if you couldn’t do it with a “slow weapon”+“Devastate” you won’t be able to do it with a “fast weapon”+“Heroic Strike”. One of the advantages of Heroic Strike is that it allows you you to vary your rage generation. You should never rely on simply spamming the same 2 skills.

Commanding Shout:

Some people swear by this skill. I’ll admit it’s fairly useful, but its main purpose is that it’ll give healers a time buffer with which they can heal you. If you’re tanking trash, healers likely don’t need to devote 100% of their attention to you, this makes Commanding Shout not so important. On hard hitting bosses and mobs however it’s a good idea to keep it up.

NOTE: I don’t really believe in keeping Commanding Shout on 100% of the time. If the healers in the group find themselves constantly relying on that extra HP to keep you up, then there’s a BIG problem. The fact is no matter how good you are, Commanding Shout will go down at some point. If the healers have become complacent because of the skill they may neglect to adapt their heals to keep you up.

Gems:

As far as gems go I completely agree with Kailand on the fact that a more balanced approach helps more. A lot of warriors out there tend to think that pure Stamina gems are the only way to go. The fact is that tanking gear has several coloured slots for good reason! Sure Stamina is VERY important, but it’s not the only stat out there for tanks. Stamina increases your HP, and once again gives healers a larger time buffer with which they can heal you. Stamina however, does NOTHING for mitigation. Meaning that if you socket strictly with Stamina gems then you’ll be getting hit more often and for larger amounts, somewhat negating your extra health.

Here’s a list of useful crafted gems:

Red Sockets:

- This is a case of personal preference. I typically have a suitable hit rating and I don’t find strength to be particularly useful (in the quantities given by gems). I tend to choose either the +Dodge or the +Agility/+Stamina (there are drops in Heroics that have +Dodge/+Stam).

[subtle Living Ruby] +8 Dodge

[shifting Nightseye] +4 Agility +6 Stamina

[sovereign Nightseye] +4 Strength +6 Stamina

[Glinting Noble Topaz] +4 Agility +4 Hit Rating

Blue Sockets:

[solid Star of Elune] +12 Stamina

Yellow Sockets:

[Enduring Talasite] +4 Defense Rating +6 Stamina

Now that I’ve written FAR more than I should have, my best piece of advice is this:

AGGRO AND THREAT MANAGEMENT IS EVERYONE’S RESPONSIBILITY, NOT ONLY THE TANK’S!

I don't have any pity for DPS crazed individuals that will sacrifice the survivability of their peers in order to increase their own standings in the damage meters.

Ignorance and improper management of an individual's threat rate is a poor excuse for wiping your group.

If have questions let me know!

Cal

[Martok]

Well here my two cents I guess,

I don't have any pity for DPS crazed individuals that will sacrifice the survivability of their peers in order to increase their own standings in the damage meters.

Ignorance and improper management of an individual's threat rate is a poor excuse for wiping your group.

I like this!

Exactly why I do not run any type of meters.

[Scryll]

Commanding Shout:

Some people swear by this skill. I’ll admit it’s fairly useful, but its main purpose is that it’ll give healers a time buffer with which they can heal you. If you’re tanking trash, healers likely don’t need to devote 100% of their attention to you, this makes Commanding Shout not so important. On hard hitting bosses and mobs however it’s a good idea to keep it up.

NOTE: I don’t really believe in keeping Commanding Shout on 100% of the time. If the healers in the group find themselves constantly relying on that extra HP to keep you up, then there’s a BIG problem. The fact is no matter how good you are, Commanding Shout will go down at some point. If the healers have become complacent because of the skill they may neglect to adapt their heals to keep you up.

It's a shout, a group buff. It's not for you, it's for the rest of us poor schmucks eating AoE or damage from additional mobs. We don't get multiple dedicated healers on each of us. When I'm eating a garrote, a Holy Fire, whirlwinds I'm still trying to get away from, etc, I need as much health as I can get, because chances are a healer isn't going to get to me immediately. Fights go easier when the rest of us have buffs like Commanding Shout and Fortitude

Well here my two cents I guess,

I don't have any pity for DPS crazed individuals that will sacrifice the survivability of their peers in order to increase their own standings in the damage meters.

Ignorance and improper management of an individual's threat rate is a poor excuse for wiping your group.

I like this!

Exactly why I do not run any type of meters.

Why do I get the feeling that Calendar might consider not running Omen or KTM to fall under "ignorant of your threat rate"?

[Martok]

I run omen scryll. Meters as in damage and heal meters....

[Waldonnis]

I definitely concur with the above thoughts on taunt. Even before BC and mangle was introduced, I always tried my best to save my taunt for emergencies, when breaking crowd control, or if I was slow to generate threat (back then, even KTM wasn't around, so it was largely done by intuition). Post-BC, not much has changed in that regard and I do much of what was mentioned above. An opening mangle miss I can live with, but missing mangle then a dodged lacerate almost always ends with me mashing taunt next, along with (hopefully) a TS warning saying that I need a moment longer. I also tend to use taunt to get quick aggro on a second or third mob when tanking multiples, especially if I'm expecting a big heal early on (heroics, mostly, but also Karazhan). After that, I just tab-lacerate (similar to sunder in threat generation) a few times and periodically re-lacerate each...I rarely lose their attention after that.

Something I've noticed post-BC in damage classes is the complete and utter lack of threat control...or even self control. Pre-BC, it was commonly understood by higher-dps classes that waiting for 2-3 sunders before opening up was a good idea. Hunters could get away with starting early due to feign, but even that was spotty at times (yay resists). Now, though...ugh. People see a taunt go up and assume "taunt means GOGOGO" *facepalms*, and same for mangle. If you're reading this as a damage class, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF THRALL wait to unleash your personal brands of hell until your tank is sure to have the mob's attention. This goes double when the tank is trying to keep the attention of multiple mobs. In those cases, they need to build up threat on each...starting early and having him/her blow their taunt to save your ass often leads to the second/third mob smooshing the healer in a hurry. If you crit a ton (Verissi does and always has, so I know this well), waiting extra-long to start then going nuts doesn't help your threat as much as just doling out the damage slower, e.g. wait a second or two between casts...and if you crit 2-3 times in a row, stop casting if you think you're about to get an angry mob heading your way. I know it goes against everyone's nature not to keep spamming buttons, but sometimes it's just better to sit there for a few seconds doing nothing if it prevents chaos.

One big tip for tanks and damage classes, do NOT rely on Omen/KTM. More about the threat system has been disclosed, but it's still largely a "closed box" system that we don't have hard facts about (just relative numbers and observation). As such, while your threat meter may say you're fine, you could still be over the line (or still need to work a bit, in a tank's case).

[Corellon]

Has anyone tried that new enchant yet for threat? I would love to hear how that works

[Waldonnis]

It's a 2% increase, so I'm not sure how worthwhile it will really be...and (in my case) strength or even an armour kit for the stamina may be a better option. If I can find someone else that has it, I may put it on Hoofie's alternate tanking gloves to try out. If I do, I'll let ya know

[Calendar]

As far as Commanding Shout goes it's pretty much a case by case basis. I totally agree with you Scryll, there are situations where it's important for the rest of the group to have more health. My comment was mostly geared towards tanks who view the buff like another "mini Fortication", it's not. If you're taking out regular trash and your DPS is dieing than you're likely to have CC problems, not a lack of HP.

And not having Omen/KTM is not necessarily being ignorant of your threat rate. Many people can manage their aggro just fine without the addons. I'd go as far as to say that those that don't use these addons and still manage their threat well are obviously superior players. On the other hand, if a person can't manage their threat and refuse to use an addon than there's an issue.

And I also agree with Waldonnis, Omen/KTM is a tool and can only be relied on to a certain extent.

As for the threat enchant, I'm very curious about it as well. The only other decent enchant for gloves is +8 Stamina in my opinion.

[Bula]

BULA just bash!!!

OOC

I basically just hit things, Bula isnt a good pick for main tank in a group but he sure is fun to play.

BULA

Ogre Warlord

[Scryll]

BULA just bash!!!

OOC

I basically just hit things, Bula isnt a good pick for main tank in a group but he sure is fun to play.

BULA

Ogre Warlord

Sorry about shoving you into the tank role in Arc. last week Bula. I'm afraid I spend so much time thinking about how much CC a group has these days that I've developed a stunted view on the roles of classes without much CC.

[Zebgora]

This topic seems pretty old but I'll try to revive it! I suppose a warrior has no choice but to pop bloodrage at the start of the fight in order to have any rage for a shield slam. Thats certainly the best way a warrior can "introduce" himself/herself to a mob.

Recently, Takaas and I were chatting about tanking gear. He has a paladin of course and he was telling me Paladin tanks need to get hit to generate threat due to some aura they have. To which I said I guess warrior tanks just have to work harder to gain and hold threat because our moves are rage based. As a tank myself, I wish that warrior tanks had it so easy. But like some have said Paladins are better for tanking multiple mobs but warrior tanks are better for single target mobs like bosses?

Also can Paladin tanks benifit from some of the same tanking gear that Prot warriors can? I know that they use mana and spells to help in their tanking and threat but they also would need the +Stam and +Def that a Prot warrior benifits from correct? If they build up the stamina can their mana pools be gimped and therefor making it more difficult to tank?

[Kailand]

From what I understand of Paladin tanks, they require much more block rating since they do not have the same level of built in crushing blow avoidance that warriors have, nor the armor and HP that a druid tank has, but otherwise they should be stacking similar stats as what a prot warrior would (def to 490 to avoid being crit, stam for HP pool). And the reason paladin tanks need to be hit to generate threat, is because unless they are taking damage, they don't get heals, and hence they run out of mana. Another difference between Paly tanks an warrior tanks I've found is that paly tanks (or at least the good ones) take a mage/warlock weapon as thier primary tanking weapon and an elemental shammy shield as thier tanking shield, as well as mixing in some spldmg/int plate.

As for my current Arms/prot build (35 arms/5 fury/21 prot), my threat rotation is bloodrage at the start, open with a heroic strike, revenge when it is up, mortal strike when it is up and I have the rage, and sunder for the rest of the time. If I have plenty of rage, I will toss in heroic strikes. Depending on the fight I may Thunderclap and demo shout.

[Bula]

Bah no apology needed Scryll. I just like to make sure people are aware that BULA isnt protective spec'd so they arent too dissapointed when they ask him to tank. I am always up for a dungon, BULA just isnt a great pick right now for main tank. Never hesitate to ask me for a run aslong as you arnt looking for a high hp/armor tank hehe.

BULA

Ogre warlord

[Waldonnis]

This topic seems pretty old but I'll try to revive it! I suppose a warrior has no choice but to pop bloodrage at the start of the fight in order to have any rage for a shield slam. Thats certainly the best way a warrior can "introduce" himself/herself to a mob.

Recently, Takaas and I were chatting about tanking gear. He has a paladin of course and he was telling me Paladin tanks need to get hit to generate threat due to some aura they have. To which I said I guess warrior tanks just have to work harder to gain and hold threat because our moves are rage based. As a tank myself, I wish that warrior tanks had it so easy. But like some have said Paladins are better for tanking multiple mobs but warrior tanks are better for single target mobs like bosses?

Also can Paladin tanks benifit from some of the same tanking gear that Prot warriors can? I know that they use mana and spells to help in their tanking and threat but they also would need the +Stam and +Def that a Prot warrior benifits from correct? If they build up the stamina can their mana pools be gimped and therefor making it more difficult to tank?

The protection tree for paladins has gotten a major overhaul (actually several) since my day, but I have tried to keep up with some of the changes recently...I tend to chat with quite a few paladins now, so I like to not feel so lost Holy stuff I know (some changes, but it's mostly the same), but retribution and protection topics are like foreign languages to me

Anyway, probably the best explanation and comparison that I've found so far is from the Maintankadin forums. There are several other stickied threads and some good discussion about the finer points of paladin tanking and gear choices for those interested. Several guilds Hordeside do use paladin main tanks against some hefty bosses as well (especially those that they are on a tight timer to kill, such as Kazzak) and I'm sure some of them would offer up some info if asked.

In my experience with paladin tanks so far, they seem to generate threat on par with druids and generate more immediate threat than warriors against 1-2 targets, including bosses. Considering how trigger-happy damage classes are post-BC, this can be a big benefit. On more than 2 mobs, I haven't seen a class that can generate as much threat against every mob quite like a paladin....it's really staggering, but makes sense considering their threat mechanics. A good example would be a standard BM run: with a warrior or druid, one dps is dedicated to adds; with a paladin, adds are often killed by spell damage from the paladin and rarely head towards Medivh at all (for lesser-geared paladins, it usually takes a bit of help from the party to kill the adds, but it's still quite neat to watch).

Oh, also, Kailand's partially correct about paladins needing to get hit. It's true that paladins actually get mana from direct heals received, which is huge to keep consecration and their various shields and abilities going, but a protection paladin also does holy damage to whatever hits them...which generates quite a bit of threat on its own. Depending on talent choices, blocking an attack may also cause damage, generate threat, and increase block for a short time. Lastly, and also depending on talent choices, incoming hits may trigger additional attacks with the paladin's weapon for a short time (similar to windfury). So really, getting hit is really the source of everything for paladins and why they can choose low-damage, caster weapons over traditional warrior tanking weapons.