On the subject of rotations...

[Baracko]

Many have been asking me about the rotation, and I've heard a bit of grumbling here and there.

** Please read the whole post carefully before getting mad or making assumptions **

Just so we all know the logistics, here is the situation in a nutshell:

1. In the old raid, we struggled with consistency towards the end, using alot of replacements. It didn't always work out.

2. In an effort to make #1 less of an issue with this raid, I decided to bring in more than 25 to start. Due to RL and other issues, this hasnt happened/worked either.

3. As a byproduct of 1 and 2, we have 26 current raiders who have been pretty consistent.

4. Naxxramas is a snorefest, really only requiring about 6 healers, sometimes 7, while Ulduar is rumored to need 8. I want to plan to be able to tackle this head on when it comes out.

5. Almost all of us have lives of some sort, and a few of you cant make it on certain nights.

This all being said, here is what I'm going to do about it/think about it:

6. If you can make a raid night, but are asked to sit, you will get a share of the dkp for that evening. Sitting + getting dkp = being there for the first 30 mintues of the raid, ready to step in at a moments notice. After the 30 mins is over, you are free to do what you wish. This is a small price to pay for a night's worth of dkp. If you are completely absent for an evening, you will not get dkp. The main raid post has been changed to reflect this. This way, you at least are not losing the dkp for the evening.

7. It might be a healer more often than not that has to sit at the moment, due to the nature of the instance. I'm also going to look at having Tiz/Remm respec more often to compensate at times. I have to do whats best for the raid, not just for the person, and right now, this is it. In Ulduar, the roles will be reversed, and it will be the dps who is at a weakness. I cannot help the raid mechanics. I am not going to make some elaborate procedure for who sits out. Ill try to do it as fair as I can, with the best interests of the raid in mind.

8. #7 being stated, the way the rosters' availability have gone it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that anyone will have to sit. RL and other issues have forced us to still find a replacement almost every night, so I don't anticipate this being a big issue. Please don't put the cart before the horse.

9. If any of us have to sit, it will most likely not be for the whole week, so I'm not going to plan it out so you can make other plans per se, because you will need your ID's for our group at some point during the week.

For those of you who have offered to sit to limit drama, your offer is noticed an appreciated, but will not be needed at this time.

Please don't stir the pot over this. From the bottom of my heart, I really don't think anyone is going to lose out.

Please feel free to discuss this issue in this thread, but keep the discussion out of the main raid post.

I am really excited again about this group, and I think we're gonna do great. Furthermore, I think Ulduar will be a great time for our group to shine, as we'll always done things like CC very well.

- Baracko, your team raidleader

Edited February 2, 2009 by Baracko

[Martok]

I think all the healers are on the same page (though not all might voice their opinions) your plan sucks. Nobody wants to sit. Period. You can give it any type of spin you want but thats the bottom line. The "if you are sit out be available for 30 mins" ya right. I let you crap on my head in SSC days to rush home just to be told "sorry, we don't have a spot for you". I'm not even going to entertain the idea this time.

If I am sat for a night, don't expect me to be sitting around just waiting for a possibility of a spot. You seriously need to think out before sitting the healers out. I can tell you, if this sitting thing becomes a regular occurance I will solve the whole situation by removing myself entirely from the raid. Plain and simple.

The healers are fighting for much of the same items the DPS caster classes are now with the changes to spellpower. So healers get the short end on the DKP. Thats great. Yes, I did read you would "throw us a dkp bone to shut up". Didn't work. Sorry.

The idea was to keep you from looking for replacements. The wrench in the plan is that all you have accomplished is pissing lots of people off, and if we don't sit and wait for "the possibility" of getting in on our off nights....you are back to looking for replacements anyhow.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Martok

[Orcala]

With the upcoming dual specs I don't think it will be a problem if everyone gets a decent dps/healy set. (most likely in the Uldar content patch). I can't think of any instances we really have to worry about now.

[Rhoach]

I personally don't mind having to sit every now and then, I'm just glad to be part of the raid.

In response to Uggy's post, I can definitely see where he's coming from, but I think Bar's just trying to solve this the best way he can. Not a perfect solution by any means, but he's working with what he's got.

If being on standby is a big probem for some folks, could we just have designated days where they will have a spot for sure and then days when they can just assume they won't be coming? And for those who don't mind being sat, they could just stay with the current system?

[Kailand]

Myself, I don't mind sitting at all. Have a healer respec DPS for a night and have a DPS sit, I'm sure not many are going to mind that much. I figure it would be at most 1 night a month (and probably more like one night every other month), which isn't a big deal, as alot of us would probably miss that due to RL issues anyways. Additionally this ensures that our replacements, etc. are at the same gear level so that when attendence issues may come up during Ulduar, we will be able to deal with them more effectively. I personnally thought that the original idea of having 30 in our stable roster was a better idea, as it would allow us to have a more stable progression come ulduar, without having to worry about burn outs, and the regular sort of absences that we have been seeing.

And sitting out one night a month is nothing compared to other raiding guilds who swap people out on a per fight basis, and have a larger raiding roster.

All in all, I think this is a good idea from a progression stand point.

****

Just wanted to add one more thing, as it is, it would only be tuesday nights where a person would be required to sit, since Tizaria can't come sundays, and rhoach can't make it thursdays. So its more like one night every six months, not anything to go into a fit about.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Kailand

[Martok]

DPS is not being asked to sit. Tanks are not being asked to sit. Its only healers "at this point".

That is where my problem is.

[Waldonnis]

It's still WAY too early to start conjecture on Ulduar, so let's keep any comments about what the "requirements" will be out of the discussion entirely. FFS, it's not even done being developed yet (not to mention tuning) and already there are rumours as to the right tank/dps/healer ratios? Post reliable quotes/sources or erase it from your minds as "players are making crap up again", like they ALWAYS do.

Honestly, I keep hearing how "boring Naxx is" from some people, so why don't they just sit instead of "some people"? If they're so bored, then here's an idea: STOP GOING. Some of us don't care for the drama or hearing how tired people are of an instance every five minutes...we're actually interested in being there. Problem solved?

Frankly, I've felt less and less like this raid is about "fun with friends" these days. Half of the time, people don't even get my friggin name right...people I've known and raided with for years. I'm no more than a raid slot now and thus have become more and more quiet as time goes on. I can understand why people are feeling slighted by the announcement that some will have to sit...because they're just "slots". Before going on about how hard it is to juggle a roster and such, I know the game very well...welcome to raid leadership.

[Kalea]

To some of us that aren't running this 5 nights a week, either in 10 or 25 man groups, it isn't a "snorefest". We're enjoying ourselves and would like to collect our set pieces for the bonuses they give. Maybe, some day, even learn to get past the slimes without dying. *grins*

If you want loyalty to a raid, Baracko, you need to be loyal to your people. Especially those that have made this raid happen week after week, month after month, back in BC, and committed to carry it on in this expansion.

We're not a bunch of monkeys filling slots. We're people who have set aside time in our lives to be there because we look at our raid members as members of a family working together for the whole group, not just the needs of the few.

[Calendar]

Hey guys,

Well I guess it's time I wrote my own two cents with regards to this "rotation thing". Mind you this is gonna be a little long, but should give some insight on some of the thought process that went into this.

Let me start by saying, as a former raid leader, there is nothing more stressful or aggravating then having to find replacements for raiders. (This is compounded by the fact that both Baracko and I have full time jobs which limit our play time).

At the start of this raid Baracko and I discussed some options to alleviate the need to constantly find replacements. We came up with the follow rostering methodologies:

Fixed Roster

This type of roster is like what I had implemented throughout SSC/TK/MH/BT.

It requires that all 25 raiders be present at all times.

Despite asking raiders to actively find their own replacements, the onus is on the raid leads to validate the replacement or find a new one altogether.

This is a lot of work for the raid leads and gives a minimum of flexibility for raiders looking to have a day off once in a while. I must admit that for the most part (especially at the start) this worked well for us. However, as time went on, more and more raiders were absent and dumped the entire process of finding replacements on the raid leads (not fun )

Rotational Roster

The idea for this type of roster was to hire more raiders than necessary. Ideally the aim is for 1 to 2 extra players per "role". A fixed rotation would take place where on a given night a single individual per "role" would sit out from the raid to allow the extras the chance to raid.

This type of roster alleviates the troubles associated with absent players, since there is always a player sitting out.

Challenges with Having a Rotational Roster

- The process needs to be transparent and fair. (I will admit some work definitely needs to be done with regards to this). People have a right to know when they are expected to sit out in advance so that they can plan to do other activities. I suspect the best way to do this is either via some kind of public Google Spreadsheet or utilizing the in-game calendar in a creative way.

- Extra players need to be found for each "role". (Once again, this is something we are lacking, it would require us to do some recruiting).

- There needs to be good communication between raiders and the raid leads. If someone is going to miss a raid, advance notice needs to be given. I find it unacceptable that someone sitting out would have to be advised 15min after raid start that they are in fact gonna be raiding.

================================================================

I think both types of rosters can work just fine if properly established and I personally don't have a strong preference towards either. Some people will prefer the flexibility of a rotation while others don't like the idea of having to sit out. Which ever one of these rosters gets adopted I think we need the cooperation of all raiders to make it work!

Current Challenges

Here's a list of some of the issues that are currently causing us headaches with regards to deciding how best to proceed:

- Lately we have been having TONS of people missing due to connection problems. (I know these might be temporary, but replacements must still be found).

- We have a few folks with variable or slightly less predictable schedules.

- Our roster is completely unstable. We are somewhere between a fixed roster and a rotational roster without much consistency.

- We currently don't have a very good understanding of how our raiders view either options (hence why Bar created this thread).

- New this time around, we have folks who have forced us to accept that they cannot or will not participate on every raid night. (i.e. they will consistently miss one or two raid nights).

The last issue, in my opinion is a huge roadblock to maintaining a proper roster. It forces us to carry an extra amount of people regardless of the roster type and it also complicates the rotation quite a bit. (This is a personal pet peeve of mine and I find that it has a direct negative impact on the raid).

================================================================

I don't think anyone takes the raiders for granted, nor do they see them as "slots". Most of us have been raiding together for quite some time and I think I speak for the majority when I say we all appreciate the friendships we have made and the fun we get raiding together. This issue has brought to light some strong emotions but I think together we can find something that works.

Regards,

Cal (now known as Zu)

PS

To Waldy:

I think you were pretty much directing the following at me since I'm the only one who seems to get names, colors, shapes, classes and races wrong:

Half of the time, people don't even get my friggin name right...

I do apologize if I did get your name wrong a couple of times throughout the past few raids. Please know that it's not personal and certainly not because I don't appreciate your presence. I guess I should just blame my inability to quickly adapt to change, we all make mistakes sometimes .

PPS

The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily aligned with those of all the raid leads.

PPPS

TLDR Version:

Rotation Roster

The Good: Flexible schedules and easier time to get replacements

The Bad: It needs a lot more work to be transparent and fair.

The Ugly: Doesn't matter what we do, too many of our raiders are consistently missing and have odd schedules.

Fixed Roster

The Good: Everyone raids all the time (is this really good?)

The Bad: Raid leads do all the work all the time whenever people miss

The Ugly: People not showing up to all the raid nights make finding replacements that much crappier

Conclusion

- They both work, lets pick one

- Lets not fight and have a big group hug

Edited February 3, 2009 by Calendar

[Holyssa]

It's still WAY too early to start conjecture on Ulduar, so let's keep any comments about what the "requirements" will be out of the discussion entirely.

A-freakin'-men. You can't even brush by the official site without hearing the U word and the mass of the elitist maggots trying to discourage folks from even going near the place, when Blizzard hasn't said much besides "stop QQing, we promised it'd be super-duper hard!". And even then, I have my doubts on it's difficulty with the pace that people are getting geared up at.

Honestly, I keep hearing how "boring Naxx is" from some people, so why don't they just sit instead of "some people"? If they're so bored, then here's an idea: STOP GOING. Some of us don't care for the drama or hearing how tired people are of an instance every five minutes...we're actually interested in being there. Problem solved?

This drives me bats. If people are bored, why are they even raiding? I come to these runs week after week to hang with my guildies, experience epic lulz, point & laugh at epic fails, get wasted off of Tizzy's bunnies, and just have an overall good time, not whimper about the action. The drama only falls on deaf ears. Yea, it's the same ol' content each week, but how is it any different than the past? It's all part of playing a game with no ending, folks. Get used to it, and make the most of it with the folks you play with I say. The problem is only going to slowly resurface when Ulduar (dammit, I said it) hits anyway. *hurls squeaky toy at Orcala*

We're not a bunch of monkeys filling slots. We're people who have set aside time in our lives to be there because we look at our raid members as members of a family working together for the whole group, not just the needs of the few.

But mama, I swore I saw a monkey in our raid last week! It had a big pink bubble that was this huge! +==O_o==+

[Orcala]

But mama, I swore I saw a monkey in our raid last week! It had a big pink bubble that was this huge! +==O_o==+

Yeah I saw it too, we weren't drinking!

But seriously with Naxx and the other content we have done so far doesn't seem nearly as challenging as BC content. Thank god they have achievements for the dragon + adds! Also we probably don't have to worry about healers sitting out. If need be i'll "adopt a healer" for a night and pay the respeccing fees.

[Baracko]

This is the kind of discussion I was looking for! Keep it up! I don't have to the time to respond the way I want today due to folks being in town/work, but I will soon.

Good luck in Naxx tonight, everyone!

- Bar

[Tepheris]

Hello my fellow Clan members! I would just like to say thanks first of to the group as a whole for allowing me to be part of the 25 man group. So far I have totaly enjoyed raiding with you guys! You all have been great and we have had some good laughs! I just want to say though I'd be more then willing to give up my spot for a night or "ratation" for any healer that would like to repec and go dps for the night. No complaints here. I just want to see us progress and contiue to have fun. Remember it is just a game and ment to be fun.......

Teph/Jestin

[Kadi]

As one of the healing leads, I very much appreciate the time that many of the healers have taken to speak with me, and I hope that I was able to address most of your concerns when I spoke with Baracko and Zuworty last week.

I agree with most of the Healers in that I don't like the rotation idea. I've experienced what happens in guilds who use it firsthand, and I've found in my own experiences that it usually creates more problems than it solves. I do understand where Baracko is coming from with his reasoning, and while it may not be my first choice, as long as the rotation is done in a fair and consistent manner, that we aren't going to be 'left behind' in terms of gearing, and as long as some healers, if they want, can respec DPS to spread the 'sit out' burden on to more of the raid than just the healers, then I personally am fine with it. I believe Baracko's initial post covered most of this.

Myself, I still worry about gearing since for every piece that is not plate, I have to compete with many of the DPS in order to get it. Part of it is because of my own choices for how I want to gear my character, but I know I would be sorely upset if the spellsword dropped off Kel'Thuzad, I had the highest DKP of those who wanted it, and I was sitting outside because it was my 'sit out' night. While that is one 'selfish' example, I think it does illustrate why so many people, especially healers, have gearing concerns.

I do think Waldy also touched on something with the 'we feel like slots not people' comment that resonated with me. I think it, more than anything else, is indicative of why this has become such an unexpected firestorm. I am sorry to hear that Waldy doesn't feel like talking to us anymore, and I hope that can be fixed, but I certainly understand where he is coming from. I'm with Holyssa in that I don't come to raid JUST to see new things (though it's certainly fun when we do!) but to spend time with a group of people I have come to know and hate, er, love. I personally do NOT find the instance to be 'boring'. Yes, we rolled it pretty easily and I am certainly looking forward to new challenges... but I think that those challenges wouldn't be nearly as fun if I didn't have all of you guys to share them with me.

We're in 'easy' content right now. I say we all take the time to have fun, relax, and reforge the bonds that made our raid so much fun in the first place.

-Kadi

[Tizaria]

ooc let me preface this by saying. I FRELLING LOATHE FORUMS ;p also

I lead a raid myself so I understand the complete and utter frustration and disappointment when one of my raiders doesn't show up, can't show up, is being a douche about showing up. It's hard to find replacements at the last minute I understand all of that. However I've been playing a healer for 4 years now. I have 4 characters over level 70. I've raided as both healer and dps. Healers get shafted right up the bung hole. Now with the spell power changes all Blizz did was remove what little lube we had. I can see both sides of this argument both for and against. I see both sides every week.

For this particular raid and this particular situation, this is what I see:

In almost every stumbling block that I've seen in this raid, the one major winning strategy was "Give the healers more to do". We don't have a rotation we can maximize. We can't get away with gearing in mostly blues and still get epic numbers. Gearing is very hard for a healer and we have to fight for every piece of gear.

Now what I see is in BC healers worked damn hard and brought it every week. We all had consumables, we all give it everything we had. While I consistantly saw dps not potting, not using food, standing in poo, afking DURING bosses. Now I'm not saying the healers are perfect, and I'm not saying the dps sucks. What I am saying is that now after how hard the healers have worked we get a "Thanks Bend Over, we'll call you if we need you"? I know that's not how this is meant and I know that the raid leads are trying to do what is best for everyone. I however am not going to sit for a night so dps can tralala through the instance and get even further ahead just to blame healers later when they stand in the effin poo.

Again, let me say, not all dps is horrible nor are all healers angels. And I'd just like to point this out... this is the only raid I know of that has a 'surplus' of healers. Every other raid I know is actively recruiting anything with a healing button. Everyone has to work together to get the raid moving, but in this case, it appears to me, that most of the time, it's the healers that are picking up the slack, it's the healers going above and beyond, it's the healers who are getting crapped on. And yes I do see some of the dps working just as hard, putting in just as much effort and I mean no offense to those of you that have sacrificed just as much.

If my opinions (and that's what they are MY OPINIONS) are out of line, then I'm sorry you have taken offense. I'm by no means calling anyone out or naming any names. I really like this raid, I really like the people. Perhaps I've let myself have too much fun as it seems lately to me that people are more apt to point fingers and push around blame. Raiding in BC with you guys was the most fun I've had in the game so far. But after too much drama everywhere around me I've found I'm worn out. I'm tired of busting my ass to have all my consumables, all my enchants, all my gems, be geared as best I can in as much heroic gear as I can, only to see others who do 1/10 the work, put in 1/10th the effort, be rewarded for being nubs. Maybe I'm taking this whole 'healers can sit a night' too personally. I'm not going to go into why I felt I had a closer connection to this raid only to have it torn out from under me and I'm not going to go into why I'm listed as not being able to be there on Sundays but have been showing up anyway. Suffice to say, I sacrificed a great deal to stay in this raid and then to hear that we (the collective we meaning healers) are going to sit out because we always have to make things easier for the dps, is a slap in the face. I'm hurt, I'm tired, I'm venting. I've said my peace and I won't say anymore about the rotations.

I raid to play with people I like, accomplish goals and have fun. Drama is not fun. Angry people are not fun. If you find that I'm no longer fitting into your raid then I will step out and hold no grudges. I don't burn my bridges if I can help it, though I realize that many of my opinions are strong and not popular. I mean no malice towards anyone even if my post implies such. I don't know how others see things, I only know how I see things, how things effect me. I'd be happy to discuss your opinions in game. Please understand this one thing though. My opinions are my opinions as your opinions are your opinions. One is not more or less valid than the other. To the people they are from they are very important but can be changed. I'm only expressing my opinions as I have come to find them.

/love /bunnies /strawberry marshmallows and /pompoms to everyone

Tizaria

[Remm]

I understand the need for having an enlarged roster to cover those that need to miss a night for personal reasons, and I prefer this. I hate getting to raid and having to wait around to find a geared replacement.

But....the thing that really gets to me is this "sit out" is directed at the healers, I can't speak for any of the other healers but I know I would gladly go re-spec to DPS for a night.

Why can't the sit out be on a whole raid rotating basis so the healers are not sitting out once every 7th time but once every 25-30 times (depending on amount in roster).

Then if a healer happened to be dps for the night it could be understood that that person would still be able to roll MAIN spec as healer and only roll on dps gear if it was passed on, like we currently do

I enjoy raiding with this group, it is difficult to get 25 people together and get along fairly well. I hope that whatever decision is made impacts the entire raid and not a set group, I would hate to see anamosity amongst the players start.

*Note to bar...If you need help with a rotating roster let me know I would gladly help to keep that up

Edited February 4, 2009 by Remm

[Kailand]

7. It might be a healer more often than not that has to sit at the moment, due to the nature of the instance. I'm also going to look at having Tiz/Remm respec more often to compensate at times. I have to do whats best for the raid, not just for the person, and right now, this is it. In Ulduar, the roles will be reversed, and it will be the dps who is at a weakness. I cannot help the raid mechanics. I am not going to make some elaborate procedure for who sits out. Ill try to do it as fair as I can, with the best interests of the raid in mind.

But....the thing that really gets to me is this "sit out" is directed at the healers, I can't speak for any of the other healers but I know I would gladly go re-spec to DPS for a night.

Why can't the sit out be on a whole raid rotating basis so the healers are not sitting out once every 7th time but once every 25-30 times (depending on amount in roster).

When I posted initially, my assumption was based on what bar wrote (quoted above), was the whole raid would take turns sitting out with people respeccing,etc. as appropriate, and he was just highlighting the fact that right now it's partially due to a case of having alot of healers. If in the future we required 8 healers, or were short healers for whatever reason, I'd expect that a DPS or a tank would respec healy for a night when a healer would sit out. And similarily a tank would take a night off and would be rotated by a DPS/healer that could tank. Of course this is somewhat reliant on gear.

If this isn't the case, then I admit it's unfair and I'd be against against it (and in my opinion so would most I think). Perhaps Baracko needs to chime in and clarify what he meant. In a case of fair rotations, I think its a good idea. in unfair rotations, it won't work as people will not be treated equally and fairly and create resentment.

On a personal note: I'd like to see a bean powered, drunk, and cursing Uglutz tossing fireballs and lightning bolts to a very explosive effect on occasion

**edited for grammar, clarification

Edited February 4, 2009 by Kailand

[Xenojin]

Is it just me or have we not gone a raid yet without having to find a replacement?

i think having a roster plan is way out of our league at the moment.

[Eigun]

Is it just me or have we not gone a raid yet without having to find a replacement?

i think having a roster plan is way out of our league at the moment.

You're half right, Xeno.

Yes, we've never had a week where we haven't had a replacement. Although it is occasionally a healer, it seems to me like we end up missing tanks and dps much more often.

Now, if missing a tank or dps meant that we ran with an extra healer and were short a tank/dps slot, then I wouldn't see a problem.

But it looks like we are trying to replace tanks with tanks, and dps with dps, instead of allowing us to have all our regulars run, including our extra healers.

Which, if we think about our goals, may or may not matter.

If our goal is to enjoy playing this game with the people we enjoy playing it with, then, we won't force a particular class to sit. On those extremely rare nights when everyone is available (hasn't happened yet) we could always ask for volunteers, and maybe one of the bored folks would rather PVP or work on an alt or something.

If, however, our goal is progression, then we shouldn't care about keeping people happy, as long as "the raid" gets its kills.

In September of 2007, I recall telling Elrikk, Loot Whore In Training - "Stop worrying about loot. We're never, ever, EVER going to see the inside of Black Temple. Just be thankful we're playing this game." And look where THAT advice has gotten us.

[Andor]

i'm with rem on this one why just healers need to rotate i'm sure missing a raid every 20 raids is much better then every 7 - 8 ish. i would gladly respec dps for naxx i know it prob wouldnt be as good as the others but its better then having to miss alot

[Karrock]

Let me start out by saying you are all douches. Every time I run with you guys, this opinion is further solidified.

Now, onto business.

My feeling on this subject is as follows:

Whaaaah!

To interperate:

1) I will gladly sit out for a week or two if this means raid progression. God knows my dkp can use it. Most of you would be in my (and mama Kalea's) situation if you actually took the upgrades rather than saving it up for that one drop. We can get by with this philosophy now on easy mode, but when the extra few points make a difference, you need to take the gear. Totally off topic, but !@#$% it.

2) Tanks and Healers should be geared first no matter dkp. Tanks and healers should have best in slot items, as these classes have more impact for raid survivability than dps-and both class types are harder to find. Now !@#$% keep my damn pet up!

3) I will gladly have Rhoach sit out if his sister can raid in his place.

Peace douches

K

[Eigun]

Let me start out by saying you are all douches. Every time I run with you guys, this opinion is further solidified.

Now, onto business.

My feeling on this subject is as follows:

Whaaaah!

To interperate:

1) I will gladly sit out for a week or two if this means raid progression. God knows my dkp can use it. Most of you would be in my (and mama Kalea's) situation if you actually took the upgrades rather than saving it up for that one drop. We can get by with this philosophy now on easy mode, but when the extra few points make a difference, you need to take the gear. Totally off topic, but !@#$% it.

2) Tanks and Healers should be geared first no matter dkp. Tanks and healers should have best in slot items, as these classes have more impact for raid survivability than dps-and both class types are harder to find. Now !@#$% keep my damn pet up!

3) I will gladly have Rhoach sit out if his sister can raid in his place.

Peace douches

K

Since Karrock has graciously volunteered to sit to help in raid progression, I thought I would bring up the simple point of contention that he's missing, since he's a mouth-breathing idiot:

DPS is not being allowed to sit so that an extra healer can run. At this time, only healers are being asked to sit.

Which leads to the obvious follow-up question of, even if they're not being ASKED to sit, can DPS OFFER to sit, to allow healers to continue gearing?

Which means, when (as has happened so far, on almost EVERY SINGLE NIGHT we have raided) a raider isn't available, we don't necessarily try to replace that raider with the same type. We simply run with an extra healer. Or, we have a healer DPS. I don't think it would be unreasonable to have the raid bank split 50/50 the costs of the two respecs for a healer to switch to dps for a night and then back again. Or, we could ask for volunteers - you pay your own respec costs, but you get a DKP discount on any items you bid for that night. God forbid we try to get the crappy mod to do something even more complicated.

Consequences of this are clear: DPS races might be harder. Balancing things might be trickier. But, to me, this seems like a fair balance between helping raid progression while not unfairly putting a burden on a single, hard to replace class.

Now, on to the reason for all this: Conversations about Ulduar and what may or may not happen when that content arrives are not reliable and barely relevant. You can't predict the weather a week out, so there's no way of predicting what will happen in real life to 26 different people two months from now.

Although I hate to see it happen, it isn't just possible but probable that between now and Ulduar someone will have some crap come up and this entire conversation will be a moot point.

And, since no one has yet been asked to sit, clearly, what we're currently doing is working.

To me, I see it as two options:

1) Decide what to do with 26 raiders now, and prepare for content that is two months away.

Pros: We'll be ready to jump right in to Ulduar immediately and compete for server firsts.

Cons: If we decide now, we may or may not cause some angst.

2) Hold off on that process until Ulduar hits and worry about it then.

Pros: We'll get back to the business of having fun with a game instead of having this hang over our heads and being resentful of each other.

Cons: We run the risk of the problem not going away, us having to deal with it on a larger scale later, and not being ready for Ulduar immediately when the content hits.

Make up your minds already, you bunch of goddamn monkeys. It's not rocket surgery!!!

Edited February 6, 2009 by Eigun

[Calendar]

But....the thing that really gets to me is this "sit out" is directed at the healers, I can't speak for any of the other healers but I know I would gladly go re-spec to DPS for a night.

Let me start by saying this is NOT at all what was intended. In fact for a rotational roster to work and be fair we MUST have ALL players rotate with someone of a similar role (i.e. tanking, melee, range dps, etc). Reasons why this has effected healers more than any other group is simply because we haven't been able to recruit enough players for the other roles and because the nature of raiding at moment allows us to have a more flexible healer allotment. If a rotational roster is adopted, I can guarantee you that ALL players will face a rotation, NOT just healers.

I'm quite disappointed that many of you fail to even see the value behind a rotational roster. The main arguments are always "What about my gear?" and "Sitting out sucks"...Since when has this raid ever been about gear? And we all know sitting out sucks, but so does having an absent player and then waiting 15 to 20min looking for a replacement.

The rotation isn't perfect at the moment, it's missing quite a few elements to it....try to look beyond that and see the value that it could bring.

================================================================

As for this whole Ulduar Vs. Naxx business...

I share Waldy's sentiment, it's impossible to know what Ulduar will require, it's all speculative at the moment and not really worth worrying about.

However, when it comes to roster configuration the following observations can be made:

(By roster configuration I'm referring to the number of healers, tanks, melee and range DPS that we choose to bring)

- We had a fixed roster configuration back in SSC/TK/MH/BT

- As things got more difficult we found it almost impossible to have any kind of flexibility in the roster

(anyone remember Gurtogg and how difficult he was without having 8 healers instead of 7?)

- BT forced us to change our roster for an extra healer

(I forget the history exactly, but as I recall someone dropped out to allow this)

- In Naxx we are back in a raid with very low difficult, allowing us to bring anywhere between 6 to 8 healers (3 tanks and 14 to 16 dps ).

- Blizzard has stated that Ulduar would be more difficult, so I expect us to lose much of the flexibility we are enjoying now.

I don't know what this lack of flexibility means for the raid, but I'm sure we'll have to do though decisions on who to bring.

================================================================

As for fixed rosters, since many of you seem to want this. Please understand that due to the lack of any kind of flexibility, repeated absences are NOT going to be tolerated. People with unstable schedules will be bumped out of the regular roster. This is the only way that type of roster will work.

Cal

Edited February 6, 2009 by Calendar