ATTENTION: Important note

[Piper]

Alright! As most of you already know, a few days ago, guild leaders, along with Ancient Greg, met and discussed an experimental change in armor. We're asking that for roleplaying, just walking around/hanging out, and roleplay PvP, you please wear GM-crafted, non-runic armor of your choice. The only pieces that fall under this are your helm, gorget, tunic, sleeves, gloves, and leggings. Nothing else is under any restriction. Any type of weapon, talisman, shield, jewelry, etc. can be used, and you can still use your crimson cinctures.

Feel free to wear your usual suits with artifacts or enhancements for PvM or, for those of you who participate in them on occasion, Felucca fights. The change only applies to our dealings with other roleplayers. It's not like we want you to get stomped into the ground.

Katherine's house has a stockpile of various types of armor for guild use, all generously crafted by her. The armor is in a couple of crates and boxes along the far wall, and if you need to be friended to the house or need anything additional crafted (specific armor piece, a certain type of hat, etc.), just ask, and someone will do it.

As stated, this is merely an experiment for the moment, and we're asking that you please work with us on this. Believe me, I realize how much it initially sucks, because my main suit had +30 mana, something like 8 MR, roughly 30 LMC, 6 or so SR, max HCI, pretty good DCI, nice resists, plus some added skillpoints. My secondary suit was also full LRC with high LMC and good resists, so it's not like I'm exempt from being temporarily inconvenienced by this. However, the point in all this is a return to roots and to level out the playing field. Our only current RP enemies are the United Pirates [uP], and they, too, are collaborating with us and implementing the same change to GM armor. So the only RPers you'll really be fighting are going to have armor and equipment of roughly the same quality as your own; neither side will have any real advantage over the other, aside from the advantage that raw skill brings.

What this is going to do is make us more skill-based and less item-dependent as individuals and as a guild. Yes, it's going to take time to adjust, but it's quite obvious that it can be done. You can still be successful in GM suits. If you need proof of this, ask our praetorians. It takes practice, but that practice serves to make you better, which means you'll be all the more efficient when you have your regular suit on. It should also make success more satisfying when you realize you've done it based entirely upon your own skill.

I'm very proud of you all thus far; you've all been very receptive to this. Everyone has just kind of said, "Oh, okay, that's cool. Where do I get my suit?" That was much easier than we were anticipating! (Well, of course there was Greg complaining about having to switch hats, but he doesn't count because he's one of the people who initially helped decide on the change in the first place. I miss my hat too, Greg! We can mourn our collective loss together over doughnuts.)

We're going to try to get some training sessions up and running soon for those of you who want to get accustomed to playing in your new suits, since there are, of course, no-good, ale-stealing pirates about who must be dealt with! |3 And we do want you to start feeling more comfortable in your suits. Just like any other change, it'll take some adjustment, but you'll probably wind up having fun with it once you start learning new ways to do things and, as a result, getting even better at playing your template. A key part in this will also be getting everyone to work together more as a team, watch each other's backs, and learn how best to help each other. It should be fun.

We'll let you know as things develop.

Thanks so much for your cooperation in this, everyone. You've all been great, and we really see now how committed you are to the guild through your laudable reaction to the change. Please don't think it goes unnoticed, because we really do appreciate it. You guys are the beeessst~~~!

...except Scarst, naturally! XD (If I get called a witch for that, I'll know he read the post!)

Edited February 3, 2009 by Piper

[Scarst]

You mean you had donuts not doughtnuts

[Mare Jade Sky]

i need to befriend to her house and guess help with two suites one for mare and one for ballyn too

[Piper]

You mean you had donuts not doughtnuts

No, I mean "doughnuts," not "donuts" or "doughtnuts!"

FOR YOUR INFORMATION, SIR, "doughnut" is the original spelling, and "donut" is the alternate! I'll do what I want to!

i need to befriend to her house and guess help with two suites one for mare and one for ballyn too

Alright, I'll pass the word along!

Edited February 3, 2009 by Piper

[Kang]

Ill be inclined to follow this rule a lot more on KR with the instant suit changing macro.

However I question, why?

If not for pvp balance witch many claim is so important.

If not for a better aesthetic value

If not to show other people we are not flashy half rp guild

Then I ask why, for all these answers true as they be have a falseness about them. That crosses a culture borderline that separates Catskills tradition and Overstrict Europa RP, and we all know how well that worked out for Europa

I don't wish to troll the discussions of others, but I would hope some of us would come to a realization that every RP step forward is two OOC steps back and without the ooc relationships RP will fail to exist.

I advise that change no matter how swift must not be met with the slightest resistance until everyone has a greater understanding.

(In English It be nice to know that this custom is attempted to be adopted by the influence of a Europa Denizen that is now member of PGoH)

But If I'm wrong about any of this someone let me know please

[Guest Charlie]

Id probably say without actually knowing pip and thoms true thought in it is it just adds to the rp in it since the things as the rares and such wouldnt be in a battle in real life type scene of old.It is kinda the same as when kodoz used to have us walk or ride horses to get places instead of magery, or not usng teleporters in the houses.That would be my guess.

One thing off topic really just to say,maybe a couple of you do it or pick it up.I dont say bank to open my box,i go to the banker and open it with him.I dont know where i started it or why,but i think it just is better for a true rp.

[Piper]

Firstly, Thom and I have discussed the desire to use GM-crafted armor between ourselves several times before, with the first mention at the beginning of last year, if memory serves correctly. And if you really want to know, it was at the suggestion of a few other high-ranking PGoH members that we gave more serious consideration to it.

As for PvP balance? Yes. The skirmish today (which, yes, has RP context) went over wonderfully. Everyone had a good time, despite that, obviously, there was a losing side to each fight, and people died -- some several times. It was completely GM armor and equipment with no talismans or jewelry or anything, and people learned and used actual tactics. Everyone who attended seemed to be having fun and now looking forward to the one next week. I think we got some in attendance who wouldn't have come if we'd been decked out in arty suits, and some people who otherwise might not have had much exposure to roleplay got a chance to try that out too. Some who might've been too timid or unsure under different circumstances now seem to feel like maybe they stand a chance not to get completely stomped beyond recognition.

As Charlie said, it also adds to RP in other ways. The aesthetic value is very nice for roleplay, yes. And our armor is now completely crafted by the tailors and smiths among our ranks, not by some random Luna vendor crafter with a ridiculous or mildly offensive name. Our crafters have an actual, important role to fill now in the guild, more than just making a few bits of furniture or giving repairs once every three months the way it used to be. Their services are in high demand once again, as they should be from an IC standpoint, since they have the ability to make us all the things we need, from our clothes, to our armor, to the weapons we need to fight as an army when it comes down to defending our own. We forget that blacksmiths served a very important purpose back in the day, in real life. Now our crafters can do the same. They're a cornerstone of guild life.

We've not really had any complaints about it, and in fact, a number of folks were pretty much relieved to hear it because it meant they didn't have to have tens of millions in gold to feel like they could compete. It's something that can serve to give people a bit of extra confidence, and it makes us rely on each other more. Those things, I think, make it well worth it. I personally lost a lot of collective extra skills, stats, and mods in the change, but I'm completely fine with it because it adds more to the experience and evens things out for our people.

We'll all learn to adapt to it together, as a guild. It's brought us together a bit more and made us better team players already -- working together as a guild and a community -- and it's only just been implemented. I'm very glad to see that happening.

That makes it well worth it to me.

[Darian]

I hear that if a member is seen not wearing GM Armor. they are to be reported and disciplined. Thus, let us say I go out on my warrior to PvM I recall to my house and someone see's me wearing non GM armor,.. I will be punished? (Know the explicatives I will use verse that?)( Not that i use my warrior to hunt, but is the principle.) GM Armor at all Times.. Frak that. And what may I ask is this about abolishing senate seats? And best to leave last.. What is this i hear of trying to change to codex? The Codex made quite awhile ago. Sure.. this isn't a guild with alot of members, (maybe recruit eh) Still... Change the codex? Nay. I refuse. The codex was made and put in place a long time ago. It is the guiding principle of PGoH. To mess with it now? No. What do we stand for if not for our principles and our history? To try and change things..that means letting go of what made PGoH good. Mess with the codex and ye mess with history. Not just with history either.. ye mess with the underlying values of PGoH.

I may not have been a member back in 2004 and previous years... But I respected PGoH! It was strong and active. And it was based on the Codex as well. I may not have done well on my codex test, But i'll be damned if I stand by to watch it be rewritten.

(Excerpt,) much of my above comments are on what i heard of. I may not be right. What I heard may not be right. But I will stand with all I said. I will await a formal response.

[Darian]

I hear that if a member is seen not wearing GM Armor. they are to be reported and disciplined. Thus, let us say I go out on my warrior to PvM I recall to my house and someone see's me wearing non GM armor,.. I will be punished? (Know the explicatives I will use verse that?)( Not that i use my warrior to hunt, but is the principle.) GM Armor at all Times.. Frak that. And what may I ask is this about abolishing senate seats? And best to leave last.. What is this i hear of trying to change to codex? The Codex made quite awhile ago. Sure.. this isn't a guild with alot of members, (maybe recruit eh) Still... Change the codex? Nay. I refuse. The codex was made and put in place a long time ago. It is the guiding principle of PGoH. To mess with it now? No. What do we stand for if not for our principles and our history? To try and change things..that means letting go of what made PGoH good. Mess with the codex and ye mess with history. Not just with history either.. ye mess with the underlying values of PGoH.

I may not have been a member back in 2004 and previous years... But I respected PGoH! It was strong and active. And it was based on the Codex as well. I may not have done well on my codex test, But i'll be damned if I stand by to watch it be rewritten.

(Excerpt,) much of my above comments are on what i heard of. I may not be right. What I heard may not be right. But I will stand with all I said. I will await a formal response.

[Katherine Elle]

Firstly, we will not punish anyone because they happen to be wearing magical armor after going out hunting, or for honest mistakes. But when you come to an RP event, we do expect the GM armor to be worn. However, I haven't heard directly about any punishments for being out of GM armor yet (Though I will pester you about it!).

As for the revisions to the codex, it didn't even exist until Greg was Emperor, Borg's first reign there was no codex; since it was established it has been given a complete revision twice, and had countless changes done through the mechanism outlined in the codex itself for this change (Please refer to the codex's sections on amendments and changes, Article VI, The Council of Honor) . The codex has been amended at least once in every Emperor's reign, seats have been added and removed as fits the needs of the guild every time. We are not changing anything that makes PGoH PGoH. We have one of the ancients, indeed the actual original author of the Codex, Emeritus Gregory Meridius with us and he had no problems with these revisions and amendments.

Please keep in mind that even in the US, our constitution has been amended dozens of times, and the interpretations of these amendments has been explored hundreds, if not thousands of times by our judicial branch.

In short, we are doing everything in accordance with the Codex of Standard, and we are not going to be overly zealous about punishing anyone when honest mistakes are made. Please keep all these things in mind, and if you have further questions feel free to ask myself or Greg or anyone else who is on the Council of Honor. Thanks!

Edited February 24, 2009 by Katherine Elle

[Mare Jade Sky]

Kat, Thom And Piper are right on everything that has been said and i feel that after a long time thinking on it when you are in char you need to be in char witch mean the gm armor. i know sometime i got to change mare armor but i am getting better at it and i can not say a lot about doing some of the event because i work on the weekend when they are being haled . but i can remember in 02 when i first started to play and my stepfather was in PGoH on Ballyn and our family friend Elathiel was there to they only had gm armor on because that is all there was back then and i know i am not the best person to talk on anything but i feel that as of right now PGoH is heading the right way with the changes that are being made and i am glad they are being made

[Piper]

Yep, as Katherine said, the codex has indeed been revised numerous times before. It isn't meant to be an entirely static thing; it changes to reflect changes within the guild, and the changes we're seeking to make are, as procedure dictates, being passed through and approved by the Council of Honor first. Thom and I don't even have a vote on said council; the votes go to the other council members, and we're there to supervise and offer a tie-breaking vote if necessary. So all these changes you're seeing were discussed, approved, and voted through solely by the council members with voting privileges. As Greg was the one who authored the codex originally, he obviously knows it inside and out, and everything we've done has been according to proper procedure under his supervision. If you don't think the codex can be changed, I direct you to Article VI, Section 1:

The Council of HONOR devises and institutes all amendments and additions to the PGoH Codex of Standard through a strict adherence to the parliamentary procedures of voting and discussion.

According to such procedures, the council voted in favor of merging Espionage and Arcane into the House of Inquiry, and to merge Genesis and Trades into Commerce.

And no, as we said, GM armor is only for RP and designated events. Regular armor is fine for whatever else, and no one would be punished for utilizing it then. That would be silly.

However, our members are expected to stay in uniform, not to act in inappropriate ways so as to preserve the guild's image, and to follow the rules that are set. So those are the things that there will be IC punishments for. And if you think getting reprimanded by the Praetorian Prefect or a bit of jailtime for bigger offenses is strict, ask some of the old timers about consequences under previous leadership. We'll be about easy as pie in comparison!

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

[Scarst]

Hold up first How did this thread become revived without me noticing until now.

[Parts of this post were removed for forums infractions. Please read the PM in your box. Thank you.]

Third can you list which guilds are going to start wearing gm only armor for RP so if there in a robe so I don't keep on my regular armor and smash them into the ground and we should have a list like hanging somewhere in the boards to be amended when more guilds start doing it or stop doing it.

Edited February 25, 2009 by kodoz
Infractions.

[Greg]

PGoH has changed greatly over the years. The original idea for the Codex spawned from a lack of clear guidelines on issues the guild was facing at the time. As has been mentioned, the Codex has been changed many times over the years. The Codex was originally written when PGoH had close to 60-70 active, individual players. As time went on those number fluctuated and Codex was amended to suit the needs of the membership at that time. Right now we do no have 70 active, individual players. As a result it was recommended that certain positions be merged to keep our structure from being top heavy on leadership positions that we do not have the numbers to sustain.

I will say this, the original proposal that I was presented with in terms of the reorganization of the Senate and Legion did not please me at all. It was through discussion that we arrived at what was passed by the Council recently. The Codex is a living document. It has strict protocols for revision, so no one person can stray too far from the ideals and original foundations of the Empire. These recent changes reflect necessary adjustments that are in line with our cherished past.

As for the GM armor rule. Greg walks around in his arty armor all the time. If I know we are going to be doing some RP stuff, I'll change. Simple as that.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Greg

[Darian]

Firstly, we will not punish anyone because they happen to be wearing magical armor after going out hunting, or for honest mistakes. But when you come to an RP event, we do expect the GM armor to be worn. However, I haven't heard directly about any punishments for being out of GM armor yet (Though I will pester you about it!).

As for the revisions to the codex, it didn't even exist until Greg was Emperor, Borg's first reign there was no codex; since it was established it has been given a complete revision twice, and had countless changes done through the mechanism outlined in the codex itself for this change (Please refer to the codex's sections on amendments and changes, Article VI, The Council of Honor) . The codex has been amended at least once in every Emperor's reign, seats have been added and removed as fits the needs of the guild every time. We are not changing anything that makes PGoH PGoH. We have one of the ancients, indeed the actual original author of the Codex, Emeritus Gregory Meridius with us and he had no problems with these revisions and amendments.

Please keep in mind that even in the US, our constitution has been amended dozens of times, and the interpretations of these amendments has been explored hundreds, if not thousands of times by our judicial branch.

In short, we are doing everything in accordance with the Codex of Standard, and we are not going to be overly zealous about punishing anyone when honest mistakes are made. Please keep all these things in mind, and if you have further questions feel free to ask myself or Greg or anyone else who is on the Council of Honor. Thanks!

My thanks for your response Lady Katherine.

[Darian]

Yep, as Katherine said, the codex has indeed been revised numerous times before. It isn't meant to be an entirely static thing; it changes to reflect changes within the guild, and the changes we're seeking to make are, as procedure dictates, being passed through and approved by the Council of Honor first. Thom and I don't even have a vote on said council; the votes go to the other council members, and we're there to supervise and offer a tie-breaking vote if necessary. So all these changes you're seeing were discussed, approved, and voted through solely by the council members with voting privileges. As Greg was the one who authored the codex originally, he obviously knows it inside and out, and everything we've done has been according to proper procedure under his supervision. If you don't think the codex can be changed, I direct you to Article VI, Section 1:

The Council of HONOR devises and institutes all amendments and additions to the PGoH Codex of Standard through a strict adherence to the parliamentary procedures of voting and discussion.

According to such procedures, the council voted in favor of merging Espionage and Arcane into the House of Inquiry, and to merge Genesis and Trades into Commerce.

And no, as we said, GM armor is only for RP and designated events. Regular armor is fine for whatever else, and no one would be punished for utilizing it then. That would be silly.

However, our members are expected to stay in uniform, not to act in inappropriate ways so as to preserve the guild's image, and to follow the rules that are set. So those are the things that there will be IC punishments for. And if you think getting reprimanded by the Praetorian Prefect or a bit of jailtime for bigger offenses is strict, ask some of the old timers about consequences under previous leadership. We'll be about easy as pie in comparison!

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

I thought the CoH was no more. Please explain to me what CoH is, what members comprise it, And its standing is in the PGoH community. Like the old elf clan and old skullcrusher clan, I was given to believe CoH was no more.

As per punishment... I expect none. Asking questions is a sign of intelligence. Thus not punishable.

[Darian]

PGoH has changed greatly over the years. The original idea for the Codex spawned from a lack of clear guidelines on issues the guild was facing at the time. As has been mentioned, the Codex has been changed many times over the years. The Codex was originally written when PGoH had close to 60-70 active, individual players. As time went on those number fluctuated and Codex was amended to suit the needs of the membership at that time. Right now we do no have 70 active, individual players. As a result it was recommended that certain positions be merged to keep our structure from being top heavy on leadership positions that we do not have the numbers to sustain.

I will say this, the original proposal that I was presented with in terms of the reorganization of the Senate and Legion did not please me at all. It was through discussion that we arrived at what was passed by the Council recently. The Codex is a living document. It has strict protocols for revision, so no one person can stray too far from the ideals and original foundations of the Empire. These recent changes reflect necessary adjustments that are in line with our cherished past.

As for the GM armor rule. Greg walks around in his arty armor all the time. If I know we are going to be doing some RP stuff, I'll change. Simple as that.

Kat said in an earlier post.. she's gonna haunt you for wearing it. well haunt any of us.. but get general idea. She is the Armor Police.

I do spout off time to time, it is for two-fold reason. To get a response, and to get people to talk. Without information we are left with assumptions. Assumptions lead to misunderstandings. That leads to drama. CoH active again? news to me.

Tip. We are yet few here. We are so few that there should be no 'Special' meetings. Those of us who are dedicated to PGoH and that have been here should all take a part in what PGoH will become. We are.. What? 15 active members? (I haven't counted, random number) Once there was 50-70 active members. If ye all wanna make this regrowth happen, Ye can't be excluding people that are here now. Ye need em all. Ye need the input of every member. Just cause one is ancient or others hold the GM titles doesn't make ye exclusive in PGoH. Look at it this way.. The guild is the fire. how does one make a fire? one places bits of wood together to make one. The members are the wood. To be excluded (at this stage) to not have input, how are we..., as the wood, to ignite? I'm sure yer all gonna need read this 3x's. Sometimes I'm good at wording, sometimes i'm not. We are few, exclude us not.

Peace,

I said enough.

[Thom]

CoH or Council of Honor straight from the codex

"The Council of HONOR is comprised of the Emperor, Magister Officarium, Magistrate Quaestor Palatii, Magistrate Praipositus Sacri, Senator of War, Senator of Arcane, Senator of Genesis, Senator of Trades, Senator of Espionage, Head of State, and Praetorian Prefect."

With the recent changes that were voted on the Senators have been changed. We just recently filled enough voting seats on the council that we could actually make changes to the Codex. And I see that as a good thing. The council isn't a way to exclude people, if you have suggestions or comments on what needs to be changed or has been changed talk to your Senator, or Piper and me. The recent changes the Council made to the Senate and the legion were in the best interest of the guild as a whole. This is the way it's been done since the Codex was implemented. Other changes will most likely be made and it's up to every individual member how active they are in these changes. Talk to the people on council and give them your ideas. Without your input we are left guessing. There is a clear heirarchy being followed as is discussed in the Codex. And always keep in mind that if we are straying too far from the original values and ideas of PGoH that Borg can step in at any time and veto any and all changes.

Also, as far as the armor goes...

Scarst at the moment the only other guild that's commited to it as far as I know is UP. We've been talking to a few others and i'll let you all know if and when we get commitments from them to use the gm gear. I'd like to be able to trust that everyone will do what's right in this case. The armor change is something that Piper and I discussed long and hard a while back and recently we came to the agreement with Hawkeye from UP to implement it as a test. So far I think things are going well with it. Katherine isn't the only one looking to see it's implemented.