Zuworty's Raid Information

[Calendar]

Time

Tuesday 8pm-11pm server (EST)

Thursday 8pm-11pm server (EST)

Roster

The raid roster can be found at the following link:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p3P...zjNGwDeY2Mfvqeg

Open Positions:

1 Melee DPS (Enhancement Shaman preferred, but not necessary)

I'll also accept to bring a range DPS in lieu of melee for anyone that can demonstrate exceptional player skill

Raid Leads and Important Positions:

Raid Leader: Zuworty

Heal Leads: Kadiana & Uglutz

Tanks: 1) Holyssa 2) Ascoli 3) Tyrandius

DKP

DKP is based on a modified (simplified) ZeroSum distribution.

DKP Tables can be found at the following link:

http://www.webdkp.com/dkp/Argent+Dawn/The+Hateful+Raid/

In-Game Calendar

I'll still be using the same rules as before for the in-game calendar.

** If you do not accept an invite 24 hrs. before the raid, it will be assumed you are not coming, and you will be replaced for that evening **

To cancel for a raid, please do the following:

>24 hrs. Notice --> Please mark yourself as declined on the calendar and send an in-game mail to Zuworty.

<24 hrs. notice --> Add a post to this thread stating your absence and mark yourself as declined on the calendar.

** Failure to notify will result in DKP loss **

Raid Statistics

Kailand's statistics page can be found at the following link:

http://wowwebstats.com/ro6el5mg4eoeu

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/user/loglist...XFUVDFmY0E9PQ==

These are normally updated within 24-48 hours of the last raid.

Big thanks to Kailand for hosting this.

The Raid Bank

Current raid bank funds = 4650 Gold

Abyss Crytals

- Can be requested for any raid and main spec relevant gear

- Are free for any enchants on items with an iLevel greater or equal to 213

- Are 20DKP for items of lower quality

Let's have fun in there!

Your raid leader,

Zuworty

Edited August 13, 2009 by Calendar

[Xenojin]

Heya!

Wont be coming tommorow. My computer has a virus. Will have it fixed and ready to go by thursday.

[Karrock]

new raid = new dkp?

damn...

K

edited cause I forgot who I was raiding with...

douches

Edited February 17, 2009 by Karrock

[Orcala]

new raid = new dkp?

damn...

K

edited cause I forgot who I was raiding with...

douches

Haha bottom of the barrel for you!

[Holyssa]

Haha bottom of the barrel for you!

It puts the DKP in the pit or else it gets the volcano again!

[Calendar]

It's not really a new raid, so I'm not resetting DKP.

However, I was contemplating some kind of DKP normalisation process once Ulduar comes out. Such a process would help in reducing the gaps between raider DKPs (so everyone's DKP standing would remain the same, but people would be slightly closer).

There are some pros and cons to this kind of DKP tweaking:

Pros:

- It helps the people who had to spend a lot of DKP because they were late comers to the raid (or because they started out with inferior gear)

- It allows people who have made DKP mistakes when gearing to catch up and stay competitive

- It mitigates the "DKP Hole of Doom" effect on the people who find themselves so far in the hole that they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel (and will never be able to obtain those really wanted gear pieces).

Cons:

- It disadvantages people who have hoarded their DKP

- It doesn't reward the folks who have spent the time planning out which loot they wanted and save up for the specific drops

- It rewards players who have repeatedly made DKP mistakes and have a disregard for proper gear planning

- It disadvantages the folks that choose to complement their in-raid gear with pieces from other raids/endeavours

So yeah, please discuss whether this kind of tweaking is something you may or may not want. Ulduar is still far away, so there's no rush and this is just an afterthought for the moment.

Zu

[Kailand]

I agree with some sort of normalisation/decay, but like you said, it's so far off until the next tier of content, we might as well see how the standings are then. As it is, I think some of us have been cooperatively passing loot, etc, so that the raid as a whole gets geared evenly (of course minus the really competitve items like trinkets and weapons), additionally it's fun watching the competition between karrock and kalea, with ascoli catching up (the fight for the bottom, rawr!)

[Tizaria]

*runs in quickly tossing bunnies at everyone as a distraction*

I personally am in favor of a dkp wipe for the new content.

1. It's new content and new gear, everyone should be on a level playing field

2. Not wiping dkp encourages hoarders who won't pick up any gear now so they can sweep clean in ulduar

3. Keeping dkp as it is while we enter a new dungeon makes the people who were behind because they picked up upgrades, because they came in late, whatever makes sure they are able to keep up with the raid progress.

Yes I know this raid "isn't about gear" but I was also told "this raid isn't about progression" so I'd like to officially ask... wtf is this raid about then? If we do want to progress then we need gear to do so, we need as much of the raid as possible geared as evenly as possible. Yes I understand life is not fair. Some of us have more time than others, some of us don't need as much gear as others, blah blah blah. You make a system as fair to as many as you can and let the whiners whine about it, SOME always will. Naxx is the run we use to make sure everyone is as even as possible, everyone starts around the same level. Then when the raid has to get serious, you start fresh and encourage people to plan out what they want and gear accordingly. Some people like being in a hole, some like hoarding, you will always have both sides of the spectrum. It's about making sure the people in the middle don't get effed over really.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Use it how you want it.

There you go Ugs, that's as much hate as I can muster this early in the morning ;p

*Kicks Kailand in the shins* *steals Zu's Speckle Dust* *leaves giggling bunnies in a wake behind her*

ps not trying to make drama not trying to cause issues, just adding my thoughts... omg don't flame me /cries (edited to beg for mercy from flaming trolls and for spelling errors.. i spel gud)

Edited February 18, 2009 by Tizaria

[Holyssa]

*points*

Pretty bunny lady!

But yea, a DKP wipe is a good thing, if not creating an entirely new table for Ulduar alone.

- It's all new. And there's probably a TON of it. Fourteen bosses in what's supposeably WoW's toughest nut to crack yet will make for lots of DKP number munching.

- It discourages hoarding. If the first boss drops a super awesome ranged weapon shaped like a shark with a laser-cannon strapped to it's face, many ranged folks stuck in the hole pit crater black hole will be crying seeing it go to one of the melee that have everything they need from prior content.

Yes I know this raid "isn't about gear" but I was also told "this raid isn't about progression" so I'd like to officially ask... wtf is this raid about then?

Puppies and candy canes! Oh, the name Pink Speckled Dust should still be our new title. Karrock's T-rex will be our mascot.

[Waldonnis]

Raiding and gear acquisition are synonymous for those who want to continue down the progression yellow brick road. Gear isn't the goal or "ends" of raiding, it's the method used to make present and future encounters easier (or doable). Getting "phat l00tz" should never be the end-goal of a raider, since there are always "phatter l00tz" out there (there's no winning an MMO). That being said...

There are a number of ways to prevent or minimise hoarding of DKP and other such problems. It seems like DKP hoarding and gear acquisition continues to resurface as a hot topic, so perhaps it's time to look into some other way to handle it beginning with Ulduar. Whether or not you reset DKP for Ulduar, it's bound to come back to this same subject when the next content set is released and, frankly, the same situation would exist...and people would be saying DKP should be reset AGAIN for the same reasons.

One idea that I saw, explained in very rudimentary terms:

• Bosses have a fixed value
  
• Time may/may not have a value
  
• Items have a percentage cost rather than a fixed cost (e.g. tier items are 50% of your current DKP)
  
• Negative DKP isn't possible
  

Zero-sum or modified zero-sum works okay if you're in the position to rotate players in and out of raids or frequently encounter replacement scenarios that use the same pool of people in that capacity. Having a fixed roster negates the need for zero-sum and, honestly, zero-sum was much more useful in 40-mans than 25's simply due to raid size/probability of requiring a replacement. Also, zero-sum was created to solve the problem of a frequent replacement or new regular having absolutely no chance for loot for awhile (they'd have to accrue enough, which may have taken a month or more, and would become disinterested if they weren't getting jack for that long)...again, not really the situation here. I don't think it's working too well with this raid, given the posts before this. DKP should persist ideally, not be reset at every tier...if it's being reset, it's not working.

There are tons of other loot systems out there as well. If this one sucks or the "concerns" continue, trash it and try something else.

[Eigun]

There are some pros and cons to this kind of DKP tweaking:

Pros:

- It helps the people who had to spend a lot of DKP because they were late comers to the raid (or because they started out with inferior gear)

- It allows people who have made DKP mistakes when gearing to catch up and stay competitive

- It mitigates the "DKP Hole of Doom" effect on the people who find themselves so far in the hole that they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel (and will never be able to obtain those really wanted gear pieces).

Cons:

- It disadvantages people who have hoarded their DKP

- It doesn't reward the folks who have spent the time planning out which loot they wanted and save up for the specific drops

- It rewards players who have repeatedly made DKP mistakes and have a disregard for proper gear planning

- It disadvantages the folks that choose to complement their in-raid gear with pieces from other raids/endeavours

So yeah, please discuss whether this kind of tweaking is something you may or may not want. Ulduar is still far away, so there's no rush and this is just an afterthought for the moment.

Zu

Not that I have any opinion in this any more, but here goes anyway, Mr. SpeckleDust.

1) DKP hoarding vs. spending: Some raiders tend to gear incrementally (an upgrade is an upgrade). Others choose to go in big chunks (my best in slot is going to drop, so why bother?). I don't think you can state categorically that all those who spent lots of dkp did so foolishly or haphazardly (although maybe some did). Furthermore, if an incremental upgrade is sharded because "it's not worth the DKP", then how does that help the raid?

2) "Punishing" DKP hoarders: If anyone was really hoarding Naxx dkp because they thought they would get the jump on Ulduar pieces, speak now... A raider that waits for best in slot vs. incremental upgrade will always be such. They are likely to hold out in Ulduar for best in slot also.

So... regarding DKP "mistakes"...

If one of us has "spent" DKP mistakenly, does it not behoove us as a team to advise such player? Or are we so concerned about pecking order that we are secretly cheering when said player !needs on an item? (PLEASE stop telling Orcala that things are offspec!!!!). I'm not suggesting that we are all responsible for each other, but... we're all responsible for each other. Why is it reasonable that if someone needs an upgrade, we all agree to farm a run until they get their drop, but if it's regarding DKP, we hush up and let them fail?

In a perfect world, we would be able to main-spec roll for an item, IF no one else rolled for offspec, at a reduced DKP cost. That would balance out the min/maxers plus the incrementals. Would it lead to abuse? Probably. But this is a pretty cool bunch of folks, so maybe it wouldn't be that bad.

[Waldonnis]

Eigun brings up a good point, and a contradiction that's irked me. We're constantly being told that an incremental upgrade is still an upgrade and to take what we can when we can...but it's also being suggested that doing so isn't proper gear planning and is a mistake? I've been in the situation before as a paladin where a cloth piece dropped that was better than something I was wearing. It wasn't ideal, but it was still an upgrade. Was taking it good or an example of poor planning?

Taking it was good overall, both for my own performance as well as any raids that I was in, but DKP systems punish me for doing so by putting me that much further down for a more suitable upgrade. If we're to take incremental upgrades, even if they're not "ideal" (and not offspec), then it's a double-edged sword in the current dkp system. Going back to my previous post, in a 10-man, this isn't much of an issue, as there are less people often vying for the same loot proportionally, but as raid size increases, this becomes a bigger sticking point with traditional DKP systems (and why many go to loot councils or priority sytems).

Personally, I do a certain amount of planning and hold out for the better item rather than taking the "less than ideal" more often than not. Others do things a bit differently. What should matter is what's good for the raid overall as a priority. To use myself as an example, if I'm DPS on half of the fights in Naxx, why do I compete on an even playing field with a holy paladin for DPS "offspec" plate? I don't have a problem with it, but it seems contrary to what we're always being hammered with.

[Rhoach]

DKP = score = worth in life.

He who has the most DKP wins! In fact, I hear that if you are negative DKP when you die, you go to hell...

I dunno what I was trying to say with this post.

[Kadi]

Personally, I do a certain amount of planning and hold out for the better item rather than taking the "less than ideal" more often than not. Others do things a bit differently. What should matter is what's good for the raid overall as a priority.

I do a little bit of both, really. I took a couple of pieces, knowing they weren't best in slot and would have to pay DKP 'twice' for the slot for a couple of reasons.

1) I was replacing a blue or taking a large upgrade, even with the 'lesser item'

2) The 'best in slot' item isn't going to drop any time soon (like when we were just starting naxx, and the 'best' item was off Malygos, or Sarth +2)

Right now I have the 'luxury' of being able to hold out for the 'best in slot' items for the remainder of what I pick up, but there are a few things: (hat, shoulders, gloves, boots) that I took 'incremental' upgrades. Had I not taken the 'incremental items', I'd have that damn sword, but overall, I would have been dragging down the raid while I ran around in blues waiting for it.

So, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other. I think most people in this raid wouldn't take a bow from a hunter if the hunter had less DKP and it was an upgrade for them, so in that respect, I think just about any system we choose would work.

And please, no matter what we do, DO NOT go to a 'loot council' situation. That's just asking for trouble. Not to mention, it takes FOREVER!

[Waldonnis]

And please, no matter what we do, DO NOT go to a 'loot council' situation. That's just asking for trouble. Not to mention, it takes FOREVER!

Agreed on the dislike of a loot council, but if done properly, it works well enough and should never add undue delay in anything. Most successful loot councils that I've seen determine rules and priorities well in advance of EVER seeing the items drop, so there isn't a question when trying to get loot distributed. The poorer ones seem to stop at every item as it drops and bicker in whispers. The one thing that all loot councils seem to bring, though, is drama. People that disagree with the determination of the loot council often end up leaving the raid (or guild) explosively. It can work, but it's really not a good fit for this raid anyway, as it's more oriented towards guild-only raids....which this is not.

[Xenojin]

Yeah i don't have a problem with the DKP decision either way. I know the group of people that i generally share loot with (Except 2 People) are really good about whispering eachother and finding out who is gonna have the biggest upgrade/use out of that item. Maybe this should be encouraged more? Not saying to make it a "rule" or anything, but maybe its time we start acting like a group, and look out for everyone in the raid, regardless of DKP standings. If its a best in slot item for you, but you already have a purple on, and someone else wanting that loot is in a blue, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that not only is that item gonna be better for that person, but its gonna HELP THE WHOLE RAID because you will obviously get a better performance out of that person now.

But thats my opinion on the whole thing, i just hope that some people can come to realize that even though you have the best gear, and are doing the best performance wise in your group, that all of that is completely meaningless if we are not going to look out for eachother.

Would appreciate feedback, thanks.

[Eigun]

I don't know how or if this would work, but how about receiving a partial refund on an item if the same slot is upgraded again? Say, I take a weapon worth 200 dkp. Later on, another weapon drops worth 250 dkp. I would be credited with half the dkp back from the first weapon, so that the new item cost would only be 250-100=150. This way people who incrementally upgrade don't get into a hole they can't get out of, and it still rewards people who wait for best in slot items. You all should really speak up more and tell me to shut up, otherwise I just keep spouting garbage and wasting everyone's time.

[Eigun]

Would appreciate feedback, thanks.

Shut up, you goddamn monkey. Go back to when I was still out-dpsing you.

How's that for feedback?

[Xenojin]

Would appreciate feedback, thanks.

Shut up, you goddamn monkey. Go back to when I was still out-dpsing you.

How's that for feedback?

I appreciate it!

[Calendar]

Wow guys, I'm definitely loving this feedback!

Kailand:

I'm not planning on doing ANYTHING until we see how the DKP table ends up when Ulduar comes out. This is discussion is really to inform people and make 'em aware of the decision process (so that it's not coming out of the blue at them).

Tizaria:

I think a full reset is a little extreme, even *if* most raiders wanted a full reset, I'm sure some wouldn't. Hence why normalization would be better. Based on how much of the raid wants a reset we can easily enforce a more radical normalization.

Waldonnis:

You bring up excellent points. There are so many "fairness" factors that come into play when deciding which loot system to take and I know ZeroSum may not be the most appropriate. One of the reasons why we use the loot system we have now is simply because of how easy it is to use. There's just way too much loot dropping every night for me to be able to re-calculate things on the fly, we'd be spending too much time waiting on the master looter. Above and beyond fairness, the system needs to be fast, efficient, transparent and accessible (so that others may see their standing)...all of this is easily provided with the mod I have selected (and despite what others may think, there isn't an abundance of DKP mods that allow for out-of-guild members).

Anyways, looking at your suggestions you may be onto something. I'd have to asset how easily those measures could be put into place (whether re-coding the mod or doing it manually). The issue is in the deployment of the system in this case, not the idea behind it.

Xenojin:

I think you're right, we should make a bigger effort to promote upgrades to individuals who aren't as well geared. (This is quickly becoming less relevant I think, since the majority of the raid is coming along quite nicely though). I think at this point it'd nice to see similar specs/classes helping each other to figure out shared upgrade paths so that there isn't as many people waiting for the same item.

Eigun:

See the comments I did to Waldy. Unfortunately what you're proposing would likely be 10x harder to implement since I'd have to have a loot history easily accessible for all individuals in the raid and charge 'em DKP based on a person's historical DKP data. (yikes!) Not a bad idea, just a difficult one to execute.

Thanks again guys...

Zu

[Orcala]

Hell all, I won't be able to make it tonight due to a family emergency I just became aware of. Sorry for the late notice, but I can't mark the raid calendar as declined since I don't have WoW on this computer.

[Orcala]

Hell all, I won't be able to make it tonight due to a family emergency I just became aware of. Sorry for the late notice, but I can't mark the raid calendar as declined since I don't have WoW on this computer.

I just noticed I said "hell" to all. sorry about that haha

See you all on Thursday!

[Holyssa]

I just noticed I said "hell" to all. sorry about that haha

See you all on Thursday!

*points at the Edit Post button* I swear, you're blind.

I too will be out tonight with everyone's favorite AFKing furry. Do your best in Naxx tonight!

[Orcala]

I just noticed I said "hell" to all. sorry about that haha

See you all on Thursday!

*points at the Edit Post button* I swear, you're blind.

I too will be out tonight with everyone's favorite AFKing furry. Do your best in Naxx tonight!

I an NOT a furry!

[Kailand]

I just noticed I said "hell" to all. sorry about that haha

See you all on Thursday!

*points at the Edit Post button* I swear, you're blind.

I too will be out tonight with everyone's favorite AFKing furry. Do your best in Naxx tonight!

I an NOT a furry!

So you are a shaved.... not gonna go there

BTW: do you mean am, not an?