Zuworty's Raid Information

[Calendar]

All the loot lists, Runed Orb list and reageant distribution order are written down on a Google spreadsheet.

You can ask the spreadsheet at this link here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p3P...zjNGwDeY2Mfvqeg

OR

You can go read the first post in this thread and there's a link to the roster (it's the SAME link)

Please update the spreadsheet and add Rune Edge for me off of council.

K

Done.

[Holyssa]

Very pointless boo-boo/factoid:

On the DKP site, you have Rune Edge awarded to Anamarie, yet it links to the green axe from a time long ago when such weapons were cool. Scary, I know!

This link is the correct/epic version, which has been correctly re-named on PTR to Stormrune Edge.

Silly Blizzard and their copy-pasta tricks!

[Waldonnis]

Very pointless boo-boo/factoid:

On the DKP site, you have Rune Edge awarded to Anamarie, yet it links to the green axe from a time long ago when such weapons were cool. Scary, I know!

This link is the correct/epic version, which has been correctly re-named on PTR to Stormrune Edge.

Silly Blizzard and their copy-pasta tricks!

It's just poor link construction/verification on the part of WebDKP's site; as long as the cost info is accurate, displaying the proper link is an issue I can overlook. I run into similar things with my blog's item tooltip/link generator and had to modify how it did the query a few times now. It still messes up, but only because WoWHead doesn't give much in the way of searching for exact matches for item names and I don't have the itemIDs to work from. The only way they (WebDKP) could work around it reliably is by using the itemID and just construct the link manually, which is what they really should be doing since they have itemIDs already (may want to submit feedback to WebDKP if this matters to you).

On a side note, I don't really blame Blizzard for duplicate names these days. With so many itemIDs in the game files and historical alpha/beta/PTR builds, name/description duplication is bound to happen.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled raid-related thread, already in progress...

[Karrock]

So my unsolicited thoughts on last night's raid:

Arena Group: Control and Survival

Healers: AOE heals, spread out around circle so no more than 1 is hit with the silence at a time.

Nature resist: lightning from thorim, 8-10k nature from evokers...totems and hunters aspect would help and can be replaced when P3 starts.

Non-caster dps is preferred for the arena due to silence-hunters and melee dps preferred.

Rogues: on evokers with aoe damage on and MD to middle tanks. Rogues are vital to survival.

Tanks: DK tank champions away from circle, or tank with disarm-stops WW. Prefer tanks which are not affected by silence

MC warbringer helps, but no more than 1 should be up at a time anyway.

Commoners should be last to dps, but need to be pulled off of healers by tanks-also -3% dmg debuff for 20secs, so none on dps either

Evokers will massive heal if left up too long-they must die asap.

DPS: target types MUST be assigned to individuals, and these individuals MUST make a target macro if they are having trouble finding them. Also may want to switch some dps from the gauntlet to the arena group (hunters for casters). Gauntlet is fast paced, but less chaotic than arena.

Gauntlet: Steady Speed

Keep moving forward, but wait for CC-2 mages = 2 sheeps, acolytes are killed not cc'd. Pulling too many at once is a wipe. single target dps no aoe that could break cc. Orcala was doing a great job, but may be needed in arena if other tanks are susceptible to the silence.

Since we don't have an exceptional class balance to our raid, we need to find ways to win which may seem unconventional. Don't be discouraged-as soon as we find the right mix we will farm this guy.

K

[Kailand]

I also noticed one thing from the WWS. We had 8 Healers!!!. This fight requires DPS and not healing, I'd suggest having our healer priests MC for that fight to cut us down to 6 healers, that would be the step up we need to get this down. all the previous times we have gotten him down we have been with 6 or 7 healers. That also explains why things went better in the middle when we moved a DPs from the guantlet to the middle.

[Orcala]

Since we don't have an exceptional class balance to our raid, we need to find ways to win which may seem unconventional. Don't be discouraged-as soon as we find the right mix we will farm this guy.

K

And hunters trap dammit! I don't want to overexert myself out there.

PS: sorry everyone about last night and dying so much I hurt my back last year pretty bad and sometimes I get attacks just sitting up and it happened right before mimiron last night... =( (last year was pretty ######ty for me in general but I won't get into it)

[Karrock]

I also noticed one thing from the WWS. We had 8 Healers!!!. This fight requires DPS and not healing, I'd suggest having our healer priests MC for that fight to cut us down to 6 healers, that would be the step up we need to get this down. all the previous times we have gotten him down we have been with 6 or 7 healers. That also explains why things went better in the middle when we moved a DPs from the guantlet to the middle.

It is recommended to have 2 single target healers in the gauntlet and 4-5 AOE healers for the arena.

Actually....there was very little difference in survival time with or without the extra dps (approx 3 mins). The middle group needs to give the gauntlet 4 solid mins as a conservative estimate. The arena comes down to add control and focus fire dps. I think the silencing of players had a lot to do with the lack of dps as well (commoners and thorim have silence/interrupts).

My suggested makeup (and this is only a suggestion):

Arena

Evoker: 162k health: Holy (T), Elrikk, Ana (silencing shot), Patty

Champion: 300k health: Tyr (T), Kail, Kar (can swap to warbringer for silencing shot if needed), Zu (mind control)

Warbringer: 190k health: Heiliger (T) Foroshell, Acoli

Commoners: 25k health: incidental damage deaths

Healers: Ug, Kalea, Marken, Lorgan, Tiz/Bralor (whoever has CoH)

Zu stay with hunters for ice trap when mc breaks-no dots should be on the mc target and should be out of aoe tanking/dps area. Healers spread out evenly where your tank group is located. keep champs out of group or disarmed. AOE healing. NR totems and hunter aspect to mitigate N damage.

Gauntlet

Tank: Orcala

Healing: Kadi (calls), Bralor/Tiz (whoever doesn't have CoH)

DPS: Jestin, Higgin, Drae, Evila, Druze, Zenita

On last boss, mage should sheep target then pull boss and blink back so orcala can pick it up. Non-CC'd adds must die before boss is dps'd. refresh cc's prior to running to thorim-do not break and kill, just get to thorim asap-we can kill them in P3.

K

[Karrock]

Since we don't have an exceptional class balance to our raid, we need to find ways to win which may seem unconventional. Don't be discouraged-as soon as we find the right mix we will farm this guy.

K

And hunters trap dammit! I don't want to overexert myself out there.

PS: sorry everyone about last night and dying so much I hurt my back last year pretty bad and sometimes I get attacks just sitting up and it happened right before mimiron last night... =( (last year was pretty ######ty for me in general but I won't get into it)

And waffles....

<sadface>

K

[Xenojin]

Since we don't have an exceptional class balance to our raid, we need to find ways to win which may seem unconventional. Don't be discouraged-as soon as we find the right mix we will farm this guy.

K

And hunters trap dammit! I don't want to overexert myself out there.

PS: sorry everyone about last night and dying so much I hurt my back last year pretty bad and sometimes I get attacks just sitting up and it happened right before mimiron last night... =( (last year was pretty ######ty for me in general but I won't get into it)

Im a DOUCHE

K

Fixed

J/k whats up man?!?!

[Holyssa]

With regards to Evokers, grabbing aggro from them was an utter pain in the @$$. Barriers made threat buildup nigh impossible unless it was the initial hit, and even then it didn't last all that long without ignoring other targets.

I know you have Ana listed as having Silencing Shot duty, but can he weave in Tranq Shot somewhere in there? The Runic Shield they use is supposed to be dispellable and Spell-stolen too (if there's too many), and may make burning them down a lot less annoying.

Seems very chaotic to micro-manage enemy buffs among the mosh pit, but I like the ideas presented so far, and anything to help push us forward at this point is good. Like waffles.

[Karrock]

With regards to Evokers, grabbing aggro from them was an utter pain in the @$$. Barriers made threat buildup nigh impossible unless it was the initial hit, and even then it didn't last all that long without ignoring other targets.

I know you have Ana listed as having Silencing Shot duty, but can he weave in Tranq Shot somewhere in there? The Runic Shield they use is supposed to be dispellable and Spell-stolen too (if there's too many), and may make burning them down a lot less annoying.

Seems very chaotic to micro-manage enemy buffs among the mosh pit, but I like the ideas presented so far, and anything to help push us forward at this point is good. Like waffles.

Good idea for the use of dispell and tranq shots...Foro dispells the Council buff for our 10 man, if we swap patty and foro would this work?

K

[Karrock]

Since we don't have an exceptional class balance to our raid, we need to find ways to win which may seem unconventional. Don't be discouraged-as soon as we find the right mix we will farm this guy.

K

And hunters trap dammit! I don't want to overexert myself out there.

PS: sorry everyone about last night and dying so much I hurt my back last year pretty bad and sometimes I get attacks just sitting up and it happened right before mimiron last night... =( (last year was pretty ######ty for me in general but I won't get into it)

Im a DOUCHE

K

Xeno...the name sounds familiar but I cannot place it...is this Makerz alt?

K

Fixed

J/k whats up man?!?!

Xeno...the name sounds familiar but I can't place it...is this Makerz's alt?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Karrock

[Ascoli]

Good idea for the use of dispell and tranq shots...Foro dispells the Council buff for our 10 man, if we swap patty and foro would this work?

K

Cleanse only works on friendly targets, so pallies can't do anything about it...

I sent a note to Zu regarding my idea already, but if you look at the WWS the evokers are easily doing over 1M in heals with their HoTs (like 8k up front and then 6k per second) as well as throwing up their runic shield (absorbs 120k magic damage and reduces physical damage by 50%). We could try to interrupt but with the haste aura the warbringers have it just gets harder and harder as/if we fall behind. If we have someone dedicated to removing the HoTs and shields I think it would make things easier. We would probably get more out of it than the person could put out in DPS. As far as I know our options for this are dispel magic, tranq shot, spellsteal... anything else that might work?

[Xenojin]

haha, no i don't player hunter toons i might fall asleep

[Kailand]

I've been talking with a few people and reading a few strats, and it's pretty much you want the least amount of healing possible, and as much AoE as possible (that doesn't take away from single target DPS much) in the arena. The idea is by the time the champion/evoker/warbringer is dead, the commoners will be dead from the AoE. in anycase, we cannot afford to get behind on waves. As for the guantlet, having at least 1 hunter in there is more useful then blink pulling since it saves the mage in case of the 'omg, taunt resisted moments', plus the extra misdirects make it easier to burn stuff faster. We already have our long cast time classes in the guantlet, so the slow effect is not an issue to getting things down, and in fact aura of celerity will make that even more of a mute point. The silence effect (more like a stun) effects specials in general, so physical DPS is in the same situation there.

As for DPS order, it varies a bit, but most tend to agree that evokers before warbringers and all DPS should be focus firing the SAME target(using AOE abilities when available like fan of knives, whirlwind, divine storm, chain lightning, seed of corruption, multishot, etc). As for the champions, a few guides say take them down first. As for purging the shield, as long as someone that can purge is on the DPS target, its a non issue The key seems to be focus fire and generous use of AOE effects..

[Waldonnis]

As far as I know our options for this are dispel magic, tranq shot, spellsteal... anything else that might work?

Purge (shaman) and mass dispel (priest; very effective on groups, but also a mana hog) are the others available to us, given our raid composition.

One thing we were obviously really missing last night was Elrikk's FoK spreading wound poison around. Healing reduction is already exceedingly rare in this raid composition, so we would have to make up for the excessive healing with heavier damage, HoT removal, and interrupts. Curse of Tongues would likely be helpful on them as well, since it will buy even more time for a potential interrupt or at least allow for more damage to be done before they can complete a cast.

We have quite a few interrupts available, but hardly anyone uses them...and I wish I could figure out why (and not just on this fight). Counterspell, mind freeze, kick, earth/wind shocks, and quite a few others. These mobs aren't bosses, which opens up even more opportunities (strangulate, SP silence, and silencing shot, notably). DPS is certainly important here, but if they're getting to cast heals as often as I've seen in the logs, a big chunk of that DPS gets nullified. If even a few get interrupted or locked down, it's likely to make a big difference. Basically, I would say don't get interrupt-happy, but it's something that should be done if you're already focusing on an evoker anyway. Those suckers are healing for ~20k up front and that HoT just makes it worse (see: Runic Mending) and when you get more than one out there, it compounds the problem. Reminds me of facing three holy paladins at a node in AB...it never ends unless you can stop/slow down at least some of that healing output.

[Elrikk]

Sorry I wasn't around on Thursday, we had some pressing family issues and RL has to come first...we are crossing our fingers, but things are looking much better.

I should be good for next week...I have definitely seen the difference with the FoK strategy and that why I gylphed for it. AOE FTW!

[Karrock]

From what I have read, if the Evokers are left up long enuff, they will cast the heal (23K with additional HoT). Burn them down before that and there is no problem. You can also put 2-3 hunters on them so you have a steady rotation of sil shot and aimed shot (50% reduction in healing).

Example:

If 3 toons per trash mob, averaging 4k dps (12k dps total), it will take 20 secs to burn down a mob with 240k health. Evokers should die in just over 10 secs-give or take a few for the tank to grab them.

What are the spawn rates for these mobs?

K

[Kailand]

I'm starting to use WoW Meter Online for the combat logs (less buggy than WWS). The link is http://www.wowmeteronline.com/user/loglist...XFUVDFmY0E9PQ==

Edited July 21, 2009 by Kailand

[Waldonnis]

If 3 toons per trash mob, averaging 4k dps (12k dps total), it will take 20 secs to burn down a mob with 240k health. Evokers should die in just over 10 secs-give or take a few for the tank to grab them.

What are the spawn rates for these mobs?

Average dps is lower for single-target; AoE would increase the numbers on the report, but that's apples to oranges. Evokers isn't really an "if left up long enough"...there is no cooldown (initial or otherwise) on Runic Mending. They may not chain cast it, but they also aren't standing around for 10-15secs before trying (and are also lobbing out Runic Shield casts - both spells can be stolen/dispelled/purged, at least). The theoretical damage you provided also don't take into account that we need some constant damage on the champions as well. I can tank 2-3 of them without too much trouble, but their charge ability can wreck the group if they're left up too long...and it's even worse with celerity stacks (isn't everything? ).

As for spawn rate, it appears to be a wave set every 10secs (possibly 12secs, it's hard to tell), with 2-3 different "sets" of add types available (one set has a champion, two do not). They don't really "spawn", but rather they jump down from the observation area along the outside edges, which makes targeting macros problematic. I haven't had time to notice exactly which set contains an evoker, but it's probably the second, meaning you'll get an evoker at least every third wave after that. Warbringers appear to be in the first wave from what I can tell, which makes some sense given the rate at which their celerity buff is stacking. It's possible that there is some RNG to the wave composition (there definitely isn't any when it comes to champions, which only appear every third wave), so it's possible we're seeing more than one of each per 30sec interval, but I can't tell from my vantage point and is conjecture. If there isn't any RNG and the wave composition is fixed, we should only see one of each type of non-commoner mob every 30secs.

We're not going to be able to burn down everything and completely keep up, given the rate at which the waves come out and assuming no healing reduction. It's a good goal to start with and will work for a couple of waves, but as things progress, it's inevitable that we're going to fall behind at the current pace/dps averages for single targets and with little-to-no AoE. We're going to have to find a way to make at least some AoE work on this fight, in my opinion, even if it's limited to caster-sourced. We also may want to tighten up a little, with Holyssa (or whomever is tanking in there) moving a tad closer to the main group...should reduce the amount of time before the adds reach him and make it a little easier to regain aggro on strays. You don't have to be directly under Thorim anyway; standing just barely outside of the circle closest to him is fine as long as nobody is closer to Thorim than that.

One thing I've noticed is healers running around more than they probably should be, due to the orbs shocking them. If I get a little too close to one of the orbs and get shocked, I just take a couple of steps towards the centre of the room and it always stops. You don't need to run across the room to get away from it, just inch forward a bit and you should be fine. There are also a couple of spots near the two gates where the orbs are seperated a bit more and are a bit "safer". I stand in one spot, but can relocate if we're having problems finding a good spot for a healer or two to stand safely.

[Calendar]

A few loose ends:

Mind Control /w Focus Macro:

As requested here is the macro I use for Mind Control (note that this macro is useful for all kinds of other spells as well):

#showtooltip Mind Control

/clearfocus [modifier:alt][target=focus,dead][target=focus,help][target=focus,noexists]

/focus [target=focus,noexists]

/cast [target=focus]Mind Control

You can also add in something to announce to raid your intention:

/raid Cast Mind Control on %f

Designated Offspec Players:

So I'm very happy with the progress we've been making lately, it's unfortunate we're having a few issues with Thorim. However, our current problems highlight the need for us to be way more dynamic. We currently run with 7 healers, 3 tanks and 15 DPSers. Not all fights require that precise make up, and I feel that we could potentially progress much quicker if we took better advantage of dual specs.

What does this mean? It means I want select players to be able to switch to/from tanking to DPS and to/from healing to DPS. Being able to fulfill 2 roles adequately is no small request. I need folks that have a VERY GOOD GRASP on the abilities, dynamics and talents of their class.

In exchange for taking on more responsibilities and helping towards progression these people would get first dibs on any offspec loot. (Hence these folks will have to do twice the work to figure out what is required for their dual spec and make sure they keep an eye open for the loot that will help them fulfill both roles).

I need the following volunteers:

- 1 mail wearing healer

- 1 leather wearing healer

- 1 cloth wearing healer (I got Tiz volunteering, anyone else want to be considered?)

- 1 plate wearing tank (can't be Holy since he's MT)

Anyways, it's a concept I think we help us progress better in the long run. I hope my explanation is clear enough. It does affect the looting rules somewhat, so I hope people don't get too sensitive about it.

Thorim

I'm happy to see all the positive feedback people are giving in regards to this fight. Generally speaking I think we're progressing well, but our Arena team needs much improvement.

- Kailand is right this is a DPS race, but at the end of the day straight up DPS might not be what we need

- I fear that unless we find a better strategy for dealing with Evokers, more DPS won't be the solution

So to recap here are some of the suggestions people have proposed:

1) Interrupts

2) Slow / Inhibit heals

3) Dispel / Purge

4) Prioritization / Focus fire

1) Interrupts

I think that if you can interrupt, then you should try to keep an eye out on those Evokers. Something that was suggested to me (and works REALLY well for this fight) is to make use of the Tauren racial ability War Stomp. These aren't bosses, so the stomp is a great ability that could allow us to catch up (we also have 2 or 3 Taurens in the middle that could do this).

2) Slow / Inhibit Heals

There isn't much we can do here. This is really Elrikk's and our Warlocks' department. Curse of Tongues is your friend. I understand that Elrikk is a HUGE help here, but it's not fair to him nor to raid if we MUST have him in order to get pass this fight (putting the fate of our progression on 1 person, is not viable).

3) Dispel / Purge

Try to keep up the good work Zen. I think if we can swap either a priest or shaman to DPS, we can increase our dispel/purge count.

4) Prioritization / Focus Fire

Considering we are falling behind (seemingly due to Evoker heals) then perhaps we should prioritize them. This is a double edge sword, because if Warbringers accumulate than the Evokers get more and more difficult to deal with (since their heal cast times get significantly shorten).

Anyways, we'll play around with it some more when we get there.

Skipping Bosses

Tonight will be the first night we will start skipping bosses. We're starting with Razorscale and Iron Council. There seems to be a crap ton of ppl needing stuff off of Ignis still.

[Martok]

mail healer volunteering

[Kadi]

mail healer volunteering

Now remember, you can't wear offspec loot in your healing set! The brown eye of Ug is watch--- oh wait. Nevermind!

[Karrock]

mail healer volunteering

Now remember, you can't wear offspec loot in your healing set! The brown eye of Ug is watch--- oh wait. Nevermind!

"brown" eye of Ug? Hmmm...what's on your mind?

After last night I think its time to reinstall WoW and start a new chapter...

K

[Karrock]

I'm starting to use WoW Meter Online for the combat logs (less buggy than WWS). The link is http://www.wowmeteronline.com/user/loglist...XFUVDFmY0E9PQ==

I really like this format better than the last.

K