Zuworty's Raid Information

[Orcala]

Thanks Kailand for the help, now i'm good on my shoulder enchant!

Also they should have a mod that flasks for you.... actually they should make a mod that plays the whole dam game for you haha

No Orcala this week? Who will we ever find to tank Kologarn's right arm?

K

Sounds like you guys had to cancel since I wasn't there, I told you my DPS would be missed! See you all tonight... black is back!

[Waldonnis]

Change of plans has me traveling friday morning-I will be here for Thursday's run

Too late. You already said you weren't coming, so we already replaced you with one of these:

[Holyssa]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...81949&sid=1

8/5/09

* The weapon damage and armor of items dropped in the 5-man Coliseum Heroic version have been updated to match their item level.

* Using Braxley's Backyard Moonshine will no longer trigger the regurgitation animation.

* Wintergrasp Commendation and Commendation of Bravery can no longer be used inside any battlegrounds.

* Kel'Thuzad should no longer cause some players to disconnect during the encounter.

* Reginald Arcfire will no longer grant Horde players access to the Alliance auction house.

* Epic gem recipes are now available from the following vendors in Shattrath:

Kirembri Silvermane (Scryer)

Nemiha (Aldor)

Inessera (Aldor)

* XT-002 Deconstructor will now spawn in fewer adds.

* The Black Knight will now drop a Frozen Orb in heroic difficulty.

* Razorgore can once again be controlled multiple times and defeated appropriately.

It'll be hard to say until after the restarts, but last night XT was NOT fixed. Rape-by-robots FTL.

The dungeon has also experienced even more stealth nerfs/bugs besides XT and Flame Leviathan. See this blog for a list of changes collected from the official WoW forums:

Flame Leviathan

* Seems to be bugged. Doing FL with 2 towers is fine and dandy. But FL still has the 3rd tower buff on him even though there’s only 2 towers up.

* Vehicle targeting reticule looks really good.

* Gnomes have been busy. Enhanced the handling of vehicles. They turn much better.

* Choppers can pick up Pyrite and drop them wherever they like.

XT Deconstructor

* Deconstructor seems to spawn a bajillion ads. Still bugged?

* Now throws Light and Gravity bombs during tantrums.

Thorim

* Chain Lightning only blows up 2 targets. (Holy note: Coulda swore I saw 3 people get struck by lightning when we killed him last night...)

Freya

* Iron roots: You can trinket out of them. You can blink out of them. Hand of freedom. Bring a Shaman with Earthen Power and call it a day. Shapeshifting works. Anything that can get you out of snares will work.

* Sunbeam visual effect seems to be missing. But the debuff on players is still there. (Holy note: when we did this Tuesday, I saw lasers, but only when the beam was applied to myself)

Mimiron

* Phase 3: Don’t have to place the mines. The player loots it, uses it, and the head will automatically drop down. Mimiron has upgraded to smarter magnets.

General Vezax

* Vezax’s health reduced by 10 million. (Holy note: 23 million is the reported max HP now...OUCH)

* Saronite Animus health reduced by 2.5 million.

* Animus spawns after 6 clouds instead of 8.

Check out more XT lulz I found on Maintankadin.com:

[Archimonde voice] ...IT BURNS!

[Waldonnis]

Servers were shutdown today with a minor maintenance performed on them. Apparently, the hotfix was supposedly applied yesterday, but wouldn't take effect until a server was restarted (don't think AD was restarted yesterday).

[Calendar]

* Vezax’s health reduced by 10 million. (Holy note: 23 million is the reported max HP now...OUCH)

As much as I like to take pride when we accomplish something pre-nerf, I'm still very happy to see things go down faster! 10M health is a HUGE nerf!

[Holyssa]

Guess what? More bugs. This one goes out to folks who are still running Naxx. Found it on MMO-Champ. The encounter is still beat-able if you're careful:

They need to fix Gothik.

I have been raiding for a while, so I am used to adds mysteriously moving through the center gate occasionally during the encounter. Its a small annoyance, but nothing more. Last night however, was something completely different.

Decided to run a Naxx25 PuG as a part of a recruitment campaign. Things were moving along swimmingly until we got to Gothik. The initial pull went smooth and things were fine until about 30 seconds before he teleported. At that point, a couple of DK Cavaliers from the hallway after Gothik came into the dead side of the room. They were in the process of getting that under control when a Vigilant Shade popped into the live side of the room. Immediately after that another trash group from the hallway pulled into the dead side and took to wiping them and ended the attempt completely. Putting it all down to sh*tty luck, we tried again with the same results, at which time I ticketed a GM, explaining what had happened. It was decided that we would go do the other 2 wings (spider and Abom, plague was already done) while we waited for the GM to get back to us.

About an hour and a half later, everything else was done and I had not gotten a response from a GM, and we decided to try and cheat it by grouping everyone on the live side and mana draining Gothik during the add phase. It worked like a charm and we downed Gothik and the rest of Naxx without an issue.

Don't get me wrong, the two wipes and then eventually cheating the encounter were quite a bit of fun, but they do need to fix it.

TLDR: Unless this is fixed via the restarts, expect undead friends/weird gate behavior during Gothik.

[Calendar]

What are your expectations?

I've been getting quite a few whispers lately from folks asking whether or not we should extend our raid timer....

From my perspective, this isn't simply a yes or no answer. There are both advantages and disadvantages to playing around with the raid timer.

If we extend it for the next short-term period:

- We allow ourselves to work longer on Yogg-Saron.

- Working longer on a boss fights, means longer waits between upgrades.

- Forceful head bashing doesn't always yield results. Sometimes a break is required to re-evaluate strategies (despite what some may think this isn't something that works very well on the fly).

- Longer boss trial period may or may not yield a boss kill quicker.

But, there are also long-term considerations:

- Do we want run ToC and Ulduar back to back?

- Do we want to pursuit Hard Modes a bit more?

- Do we want to reach Algalon?

- Do we want to re-introduce VoA?

My intent was to complete Ulduar to a majority of the raiders' satisfaction before moving on to ToC. This means downing Yogg-Saron, completing a majority of the Hard Modes, reaching Algalon and forging the Legendary Mace. If I'm mistaken in my goals and that is not what our raiders are expecting, then please let me know.

[Andor]

i want to finish ulduar but i wouldnt mind us extending our raid timer and doing some ToC also

[Karrock]

I like the idea of finishing Yogg and Algalon normal. 25 man Ulduar Hard modes for me mean very little at this point considering ToC is ulduar level or better gear. As long as we don't run into gear limiting fights I don't mind extending the Ulduar raid lock out to work on ToC.

K

[Ascoli]

Well, these are my expectations:

- Kill Yogg (without extending the raid lockout)

- Work on hard modes to reach Algalon (we could extend the raid lockout if we do this)

- If we do extend the raid lockout for Ulduar we should also give ToC a shot (maybe give it an 1-2 hours per raid lockout period?)

- Go back to VoA when they introduce the new boss

We've shown that we can reach Yogg and give it a decent number of attempts in one week so there is no point in extending the raid lockout. We could start working on pulling things faster, last week was a good start, but we need less ready checks...

To be able to reach Algalon we need to complete 5 hard modes (council, freya, hodir, mimiron, thorim) in order to get the key. If we plan to do this I think we should start working on hard modes right away (limiting it to 1-3 attempts per week), extending the raid lockout if needed so we can also work on Yogg. Yes, for some hard modes gear could be a limiting factor (although at this point most people should be pretty well geared up), but most of the time it's just getting used to the fights.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Ascoli

[Waldonnis]

Edit: Bah, already mentioned re: hard modes and the planetarium key.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Waldonnis

[Calendar]

Edit: Bah, already mentioned re: hard modes and the planetarium key.

Yeah I recall you saying that Waldy, I knew what you expectations were. I guess I was hunting for the quiet ppl's perspective...but then again, the quiet folks are typically the ones who don't participate in the forums.

I like the idea of finishing Yogg and Algalon normal. 25 man Ulduar Hard modes for me mean very little at this point considering ToC is ulduar level or better gear.

Karrock that statement contradicts itself. You cannot get to Algalon without doing Hard Modes, it's a game pre-requisite. Seems like a lot of folks don't understand that. There's a whole quest line and game mechanics that come into play to even get to Algalon.

[Karrock]

Edit: Bah, already mentioned re: hard modes and the planetarium key.

Yeah I recall you saying that Waldy, I knew what you expectations were. I guess I was hunting for the quiet ppl's perspective...but then again, the quiet folks are typically the ones who don't participate in the forums.

I like the idea of finishing Yogg and Algalon normal. 25 man Ulduar Hard modes for me mean very little at this point considering ToC is ulduar level or better gear.

Karrock that statement contradicts itself. You cannot get to Algalon without doing Hard Modes, it's a game pre-requisite. Seems like a lot of folks don't understand that. There's a whole quest line and game mechanics that come into play to even get to Algalon.

It was my understanding the first drop was one player per week and not a raid wide quest chain. It is important to get multiple players (3?) keyed in times of absences, but what I was referring to was the routine raiding of hard modes after we have enuff ppl keyed.

But I can understand your confusion-I was not clear. Starting Council hard mode soon is important since this is where it starts and what will be the limiting factor getting enuff ppl keyed. I would suggest getting 3 folks on the quest line so we only have to do hard modes once.

K

[Calendar]

Iron Council on Hard Mode is only what instigates the quest chain. The chain follows up with having to do the Keepers (Hodir, Thorim, Freya and Mimiron) on Hard Mode.

This basically leaves 3 optional Hard Modes: Vezax, XT-002, Flame Leviathan.

Yogg-Saron is debatable...You need to do Yogg-Saron +3 to get the Legendary mace, I don't know that I care to do him with +0.

[Kalea]

I like the idea of working on Hard Modes, seeing the new Trial, and the new VoA boss when he's up.

As we go through, when we have bosses we HAVE to tackle, like '"OBLIVION!", we could work on some of the Achievements, like not getting hit by the eye beam.

I'm pretty flexible though and will come along and heal no matter what the objectives.

[Calendar]

I'm pretty flexible though and will come along and heal no matter what the objectives.

Your flexibility is well appreciated.

[Baracko]

Just a note: If you do medium mode (aka Molgeim last), you still get the data disk! ;p

[Calendar]

More Yogg-Saron Madness!

Ok in preperation for tonight...

Phase 1

- Stays the same, Heiliger will be taking over for Ascoli since he'll be here tonight. Please be patient with him, it took Ascoli a while to get the hang of ferrying Guardians, give the new tank the same amount of patience.

Phase 2

- Brain room portal assignments:

1 - Kailand

2 - Karrock

3 - Anamarie

4 - Foroshell

5 - Taidenewy

6 - Ascoli

7 - Elrikk

8 - Sneekeh

9 - Orcala

10 - Markenhoof

- Tyr and Heiliger pickup the secondary Crusher Tentacles

- Melee when you're not inside the brain DPS down the Corruptor Tentacles exclusively (I'll set up a main assist person for this)

- Crusher Tentacle DPS on/off transitions; I'm not sure if fluctuating DPS is really worth it. Holy tanks the tentacle to remove it's slowing debuff, but DPS needs to go off when the Tentacle hits Holy too hard. Some strategies simply state that the tank should stay in until he can't no more and then move on (while DPS continues). It means the debuff stacks maybe once or twice for a few seconds, is this not acceptable/easier? Anyways, we can play around with it tonight.

Phase 3

Haven't yet reached this point, I have a few notes on the group position page if anyone's interested.

[Waldonnis]

FYI, there may be a bug with death knight tanks and mitigation. I've reviewed some parses both before and after 3.2 and certain instant boss abilities are totally bypassing my mitigation (and explaining quite a few of my recent deaths). I still take less damage than a non-tank, but the difference isn't nearly as high as before and yet is often 200% of what I took before.

I'll keep a close eye out for the same tonight, but if it continues, I may have to withdraw from tanking until it's fixed or I have more data to figure out what's going on. To give you an idea, abilities that hit me for 10-11k before are now hitting for over 20k, and the nerfs alone can't explain that kind of differential. Without the same health scaling as I had previously, I just can't soak hits like that.

[Elrikk]

Having problems this week, I won't be able to come tonight...sorry guys....I WILL be in good shape for next week though!

[Calendar]

Hey guys,

So I've been thinking long and hard about this and to be honest I'm a bit of at a lost on how to help our raid achieve a steadier state of progression. The very definition of "progression" seems to be quite subjective and despite my efforts to try and get a consensus among our raiders, I'm still left wondering where I should try to focus our efforts.

Here are the facts:

- We've been raiding with the same core group of people for the past 2 years or so

- Our skill level (and for many, motivation) has remained stagnant for quite some time now

- We reside on a server with an abundance of raiding opportunities. This makes finding good, well geared replacements difficult to find.

- The same 10 or so people have always carried this raid. They are the ones that read/respond to forums, research boss fights, get involved in different aspects of raid administration, provide gems/enchants/gear/flasks/food to others.

Goals we want to accomplish:

- Finish Ulduar

- Finish Ulduar Hard Modes /w Algalon

- Finish Trial of the Crusader

- Finish Trial of the Crusader Heroic

Conclusion:

We are falling behind. We no longer meet new challenges with the same kind of fervor or excitement that we used to. Our group is slowly receding from away from raid-loving individuals towards duty-bound disgruntled folks.

Ask yourselves these questions, try to figure out in which category you fall into:

When was the last time you read up on a boss fight prior to the encounter because you were really looking forward to experiencing the game play?

If I made a list of the people who don't read up on fights, how many names would there be?

Other than flasks and ensuring you have enchants/gems, what else do you do to prepare for raids?

If I made a list of the people who don't contribute to others in the raid with the exception of themselves, how many names would there be?

When encountering a new boss, do you relish the challenge and try to do everything you can to succeeded? Or do you strictly do what you're told on TS?

When we wipe, do you try to see what kinds of things you can change to improve your performance? Or do you concede to the fact that the wipe was caused by the same 4 or 5 individuals and that success hinges on these people learning their jobs?

Do you feel that you would have more fun with a different group of individuals? Which ones would you replace? Would you replace yourself?

We're all guilty not having been motivated at some point in time, life has a way of creeping up on you. Generally speaking, how well do your responses apply to you?

Ultimately, what I'd like to do is change the raid's outlook, morale and motivation. Get back to our SSC roots, where folks were more involved; less like lemmings jumping off a cliff and more like independent individuals capable of keeping track of fights.

We've been adhering to this policy of "hate" and calling out people in order to correct problems. The strategy works, but completely wrecks group dynamics and game play atmosphere. We make folks feel like crap, we humiliate them, we anger them, we invoke some response in the hopes that they notice their mistakes and address them. WE SHOULD NOT NEED TO THIS! Beyond simply pointing out a mistake, folks should know their roles well enough to adapt quickly.

How do we change and go forward to progression?

Step 1

This is all out 100% honest plea.

- If you joined this raid in the hopes of simply getting gear, please quit NOW.

- If you do NOTHING to prepare for raids, please quit NOW.

- If you are no longer motivated by raid challenges and simply want to "be with friends", please quit NOW. Your friendship means a lot, but your lack of participation is eroding the overall group morale. Feel free to join us on TS, but stay out of the raid.

- If you don't want to adhere to this new policy or are compelled to insult/criticize or otherwise be un-constructive, please quit NOW.

- If you acknowledge that your skill level isn't where it needs to be and aren't actively researching or doing something to improve, please quit NOW.

It is difficult for me to pick out the bad apples, looking at damage/healing meters only provides me with the vaguest of insight. If we want to reform and move forward again, we need to drop the dead weight. If you're at all unsure about wanting to pursuit raiding please drop out, I'll be more than happy to accommodate you as a replacement. We won't think any less of you and you'll always be a part of the family.

Step 2

Whether we have new folks come in or not, I want to maximize our return-on-investment for each raid.

For every run of Ulduar we do, we have approximately 20% of the loot being used for main spec (and in many cases less than that).

This leads me to believe (as stated many posts before) that our group as-is has reached somewhat of a skill-level cap. We can only move forward by getting better.

The only way to cheat the above statement is by an influx of new gear. The easiest gear to get at the moment is 25man Trial of the Crusader (not Hard Modes imho). Tackling ToC is the path of least resistance.

Step 3

We need to adapt our raid schedule to accommodate both the acquisition of new gear and the pursuit of our longer term goals. Here is what I propose:

Tuesday:

ToC (1/1)

Thursday:

Ulduar (1/2)

Tuesday:

ToC (1/1)

Thursday:

Ulduar (2/2)

Hence we would double up on ToC and spread Ulduar over 2 weeks. This does not follow a purist progression (Ulduar -> Hard Modes -> ToC), but it's the only way I know how to proceed without encountering too much attrition. If our raid morale was better, I might be persuade to have it otherwise, but till then I think this is the best course of action.

TLDR:

- We are stagnant and morale's bad

- Gotta change the way we address challenges

- We need the dead weight and unmotivated folks to quit the raid or start participating

- ToC = quick gear that could help us in Ulduar

- Raid Schedule = ToC / Ulduar / ToC / Ulduar

[Andor]

i'm with you there zu i feel we are slacking in what we should be able to do. lets get it going again

lorgan

[Calendar]

i'm with you there zu i feel we are slacking in what we should be able to do. lets get it going again

lorgan

I will do anything to get that old feeling back.

Erase DKP? Sure!

Change DKP system? Sure!

Boot people? Sure! (You guys have to provide me the list, cause being the bad guy = crappier deal than bad raid morale)

Disband and reform the raid group? Sure!

Do 3 nights? Sure!

Drop Ulduar? Sure!

I'm just not sure how to do it, I don't think that any of the above suggestions will help the situation either. Right now, I'm giving everyone a big sharp *POKE* in the ribs, asking "why are you raiding"?

Edited August 18, 2009 by Calendar

[Andor]

i'm with you there zu i feel we are slacking in what we should be able to do. lets get it going again

lorgan

I will do anything to get that old feeling back.

Erase DKP? Sure!

Change DKP system? Sure!

Boot people? Sure! (You guys have to provide me the list, cause being the bad guy = crappier deal than bad raid morale)

Disband and reform the raid group? Sure!

Do 3 nights? Sure!

Drop Ulduar? Sure!

I'm just not sure how to do it, I don't think that any of the above suggestions will help the situation either. Right now, I'm giving everyone a big sharp *POKE* in the ribs, asking "why are you raiding"?

i think alot of the prob is we got used to naxx and it was way to eazy so people think they can just show up and stuff get done. to fix the problem hell i dont know having to replace 5 people every week isnt helping it tho.

[Karrock]

Zu is absolutely right. The raid leads should get together (3 or 4 ppl max, tank/heal/dps/Zu) and come up with a list of folks in 3 categories: 1) fine, 2) probation (improve or replace), 3) government check (a.k.a. thanks for playing).

I loathe people doing dumb sh#t. Of course it happens to all of us from time to time, but some people are "habitual line steppers."

Lorgan is also correct, replacements kill the group dynamic. However, these RL times are tough and people need to do what they can-so absences are understandable. Blizzard has made the new content raidable (maybe not hardmodeable) at 23 ppl so a couple subs would be fine.

Raiding 3 nights a week would separate the men from the boys. 9/10 casual gamers have other things to do and will not be willing to put in the extra time and we would lose people by attrition (sp?). Bring Sundays back until we achieve our goals. This raid was built (since I have been here) on the 3 night model, and only when we were progressing at a decent pace did we drop the 3rd night.

K

Edit: one more thing-fix your effing computers. Constantly rebooting before a boss fight is no good-its been years now and you do the same sh#t every week. No more waiting for these people I say pull the boss, let them die. If my pc is a problem one night, a would expect nothing less. Same thing for phantom afkers. Kills raid speed and flow and frankly pisses ppl off. Be considerate and not a douchebag-I know its hard for some people.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Karrock