Zuworty's Raid Information

[Calendar]

Zu is absolutely right. The raid leads should get together (3 or 4 ppl max, tank/heal/dps/Zu) and come up with a list of folks in 3 categories: 1) fine, 2) probation (improve or replace), 3) government check (a.k.a. thanks for playing).

Yeah that's a bit more extreme than I was looking for. For now I'm happy with just nudging folks, I've already gotten some replies that will need to be dealt with before we even consider taking it to the next step. That being said, there are some very specific raiders where the statements above are really obvious. I'm all for reform, so if you're one of those folks and are motivated, let me know, reassure me of your commitment.

Lorgan is also correct, replacements kill the group dynamic. However, these RL times are tough and people need to do what they can-so absences are understandable. Blizzard has made the new content raidable (maybe not hardmodeable) at 23 ppl so a couple subs would be fine.

Replacements SUCK and lately we haven't been getting a whole lot of consistent raiders. I'm cautious before calling out these folks, because there was a time when I was missing a lot of raids (due to RL). Despite the caliber of some of our replacements they don't hold a candle to our regulars. There are several ways to deal with attendance but I'm not sure there's any real sustainable way to fix it:

- Give DKP based on attendance

- Set up a 3 "strikes your out" system (or something similar)

- Extend the raid to a 3rd night

- Use a rotating roster (*shudders* anyone recall the initial fiasco with this?)

Raiding 3 nights a week would separate the men from the boys. 9/10 casual gamers have other things to do and will not be willing to put in the extra time and we would lose people by attrition (sp?). Bring Sundays back until we achieve our goals. This raid was built (since I have been here) on the 3 night model, and only when we were progressing at a decent pace did we drop the 3rd night.

Shifting from 3 nights to 2 nights is easy to do. Going the other way around is much more difficult. Despite having started WotLK with 3 nights, it was a short lived thing, I'm not prepared to say that we are based on that model. I'm also not prepared to go back to a 3 night model quite yet, not without fixing some of the problems we are currently having.

Edit: one more thing-fix your effing computers. Constantly rebooting before a boss fight is no good-its been years now and you do the same sh#t every week. No more waiting for these people I say pull the boss, let them die. If my pc is a problem one night, a would expect nothing less. Same thing for phantom afkers. Kills raid speed and flow and frankly pisses ppl off. Be considerate and not a douchebag-I know its hard for some people.

I agree with this statement. I even made a comment on it last night. The game requirements are slowly being increased, mods are getting more complex and sophisticated. You need to find a balance between what you can and what you want to do with your system. As long as you have the minimum set of mods required and can see the "bad ######", then that's all that's really needed. Pushing your graphics or your mod usage beyond what your system is capable of doing is only gonna slow you down.

Make sure your mods are kept up to date and spend the time necessary to maintain and setup them up properly.

[Calendar]

Also, we are looking to recruit a DPS Warrior. If you know of a player with good skills and decent gear send him my way!

Edited August 19, 2009 by Calendar

[Tepheris]

I totaly agree with the above mentioned statements.... I am all for back to 3 nights a week. My only issue with with this raid and Kailands, could we please observe the 3 hour time on raiding. I'm sorry but pulling trash and a boss at 10:58 is just not that needed. Some of us do have work early. (4:30 am for myself) I signed up for the 3 hour raid not the 3:15 or 3:30 minute raid. I understand that as a whole when a night is going good lets push a little past the time, but not 90% of the time lately. Just my two cents.

Jestin

[Markenhoof]

I would like to start out by appoligizing for missing the last two tuesdays. I had important birthday's to attend. I will be missing one more in a few weeks but other then that I do not forsee missing any more raid days. That said I would like to see much improved progress in quality and speed before we consider adding another day to the raid schedule. If we see that improvement as well as a well needed morale boost, I think adding the 3rd night may allow us to complete hard modes to get to Algalon and finish Ulduar faster. However, adding a day to the current situation would, I think, make the hate ramp up worse then it is now. The "dumb ######" that slows us down shouldnt be rewarded by adding a new day for the same thing to occur and create more unrest. I also have been getting tells toward the end of raids by more then a few people, who like myself have to get up at a fairly early time. For these people staying over 15 minutes is as rude as someone showing up 15 min. late to raid. I am normally available before the raid and would rather start 15 min early then stay later. Certain situations merit going over, but it has become far to frequent.

Markenhoof

[Kalea]

I have to admit that although I read up on the fights, a lot of it just doesn't sink in until I've seen it a couple of times. Comes of being a Senior Citizen, I guess. I like trying new things whether it's ToC, hard modes, Achievements, etc. Again, whatever the groups wants to do is fine with me.

I'm open to an suggestions any one has that would help me do better outside of the obvious two: STAY OUT OF BAD ###### AND DON'T DIE.

Personally, I'd rather not go to a third night. With two nights in this raid, and two nights in Kailand's 10 man, that's plenty of raiding for me on a weekly basis. There are things to do outside WoW.

Having said all this, you're the raid leader, Zuworty. If I'm hurting the raid, or keeping it from progressing, please just tell me and pick up someone that can help you move along.

It was much better last night without all the hate. Whatever it takes, let's try to keep it that way.

[Martok]

It appears I have missed much hate.

Sadness.

The reaper of hate shall return Thursday!

[Calendar]

Going past the 11:00pm Mark

I can't help but feel really irate reading those comments. We have RARELY finished past 11:10pm, even last night when we pulled Kologarn at 10:58, we managed to get all the looting done by 11:16pm (which I consider a later than usual finish). The reality is that getting a precise 11:00pm end time is near impossible, you simply can't sync the attempts so that it all works out to a precise time.

Honestly, we're splitting hairs, with the exception of last night I can't quite see when was the last late end-time. I had proposed an off-the-books attempt at Ignis a while back if enough folks were interested, didn't happen, no biggie. I also strongly believe that if ppl are doing stupid ###### and it prevents us from maintaining proper raid progress, then by all means I'll extend it a bit to get over the hump. I won't let stupid things wash away any potential progress.

Between finishing at 10:50pm or 11:05pm, I'll opt for the 11:05pm and my hope is that folks are dedicated enough to suffer through the extra 5 to 10min. I think the idea of an "early morning" is bit of a scapegoat, cause let's face it, does 5 to 10min of beauty rest make such a big difference in your life? Cause if it does, you might want to consider quitting the raid and getting some sleep therapy or something.

3rd Raid Night

I made an offhand comment about this. For now, I totally agree with Markenhoof's comment, it's simply not worth aggravating the situation with a 3rd night until we boost things up a bit.

The only thing I'd consider doing might be another DKP normalization? Or some kind of DKP system change to try and promote that influx of gear we need.

Hate Level

Not much hate was dished out, it was mostly a candid discussion about where we're at with the raid, morale and general progress.

In fact, I'd like to opt for a much less hateful raid. No bunnies or prancing fairies, just a plain ol' raid.

I Don't Know If I Suck Syndrome

Most people who are good know it, most people who are bad know it, most people who are consistent don't know it. If you read up on fights, come prepared, love raiding, contribute to the good morale of the raid, consistently look for new ways to improve and enjoy yourself than you likely fall in either the first or last group.

If you do all that and push numbers consistent with your spec/role/gear than I really can't ask for more than that.

Unfortunately, making me raid lead does not give me any magical powers that will allow you (or anyone else...*sough*Kadi*cough*) to not stand in bad ######.

[Kadi]

Unfortunately, making me raid lead does not give me any magical powers that will allow you (or anyone else...*sough*Kadi*cough*) to not stand in bad ######.

It doesn't? Damn. I'm so screwed.

I apologize for being a bit distracted the last couple of weeks. Between multiple job interviews and finally getting a job after nearly 9 months of unemployment, I've had a lot on my plate. My work schedule should allow me to raid most nights, and I'm working to get acclimated to my new schedule quickly so that I can be more responsive to raid situations than I have been the last couple of weeks.

That said, one problem that I've noticed more in recent weeks, is "defeatist" attitudes that seem to become more self-fulfilling prophecies. Lately, I've been hearing a lot of 'One more attempt then we'll go do something else' on something that I feel that we're making progress on, and that we have a chance of defeating. To me, that is like giving up. It seems to INVITE that last attempt to be a failure so people can get over the drudgery of wiping so we can go do something else... instead of pushing them forward to try to get over whatever wall or hump is holding us back. I understand that part of it is because the raid leads are afraid that if we keep banging against the wall, some people might get upset, but to that I say 'tough ######'. If you can't wipe, then you shouldn't be raiding. It's that simple.

Also, I think that part of the problem is boredom. We aren't making much progress, and I know that sometimes during trash pulls I've found myself looking at something shiny that isn't on my WoW screen. I doubt I'm the only one. Things seem less tedious if there is a new goal ahead than it does if it's just another night in Ulduar.

We never did get Sarth3D done. That is something we should have been able to do. To some, it was "just another achievement", but to others, it meant more. It meant accomplishment to some. It meant shiny new mounts for others. It meant shinier phat loots for even more people. But, what it should have meant for us all was that feeling we had the day we finally killed Vashj. A job well done, not another 'tedious' chore of an achievement.

I don't think it's too late, though, and I think Zuworty has the right idea in starting to set goals for this raid. I really look forward to raid nights, and I hope to be able to continue to do so in the future.

-Kadi

Lover of Volcanoes (especially green ones) and Scrunchies.

[Karrock]

As a change of pace, I will not be here next Tuesday. It is a one time thing for the season so no more absences until the holidays...I will update the calendar.

K

[Evila]

Hey all!!!!! Unfortunatly I have a family energency I have to attend to tonite......therefore I will not be there. Sorry and I may be having to travel next week I am not sure. My gramps is not doing well but i will keep you posted as much as possible.

[Evila]

Hey all!!!!! Unfortunatly I have a family energency I have to attend to tonite......therefore I will not be there. Sorry and I may be having to travel next week I am not sure. My gramps is not doing well but i will keep you posted as much as possible.

Well as I will keep you posted. my grandfather did die this morning. I will not be at raid on Tuesday. Thursday will be questionable due to they pulled the plug on my aunt (she had cancer) and now we are waiting for her to die so I will have a double funeral to go to in West Virginia. I will miss you all and good luck to you!!!! The person that will know if I will not be there is Teph. So if you want or need more updates you can ask him. Real life just kinda sucks for me at this time.

See you all later,

Evila

[Kalea]

*big hug*

I'm so sorry, Evila.

[Baracko]

My condolences on your loss, Evila. Hang in there!

[Kailand]

My condolences Evila, take as much time as you want.

[Qiris]

Evila I am so sorry to hear about your grandfather and your aunt. I hope you find comfort with your family.

[Markenhoof]

Zu,

Are we starting with the new 25 man this week or is this the continuation of Ulduar? I am mixed up on the schedule.

[Calendar]

Hey folks,

This is gonna be another one of those big long and important posts. I know I've been messing a lot with the raid dynamics lately, I haven't played around with the way I administer raids this much since I started raid leading 2 years ago. Please bare with me as I try to get the right formula; something that will enable progression, allow players to have fun and improve raid morale.

Replacements & Roster Rotations

Anyone who's taken a look at our roster for the past month knows that we've had an incredible influx of absentees. Our current replacement model SERIOUSLY impedes progress and plays against us. Our current raid model was an impediment late in TBC and it's showing its ugly head once again. I've been juggling around many ideas and ultimately the only one that really addresses our problem is having a roster rotation. Before you all poop your pants thinking "I don't want healers to be forced to sit out again?!" please read on....

In a Nutshell

We would grow our roster from a fixed 25 ppl to approximately 30 ppl. We need extras for each important roles: Tank, Melee, Range, Healer. The extras must be rotated in and will be held to same high standards as the regulars (i.e. must bring flasks, gear up appropriately, perform, etc.)

Who Determines the Rotation?

The raid leads will determine who sits out on a particular night. No advance notice will be given to the person sitting out, everyone is expected to be online by 8:00pm server time.

How Will the Raid Leads Make the Determination?

Raid leads are as follow:

Healers - Uglutz (backup Kadiana)

Physical DPS - Kailand

Caster DPS - Zuworty

Tanks - Holyssa

(If I got the above wrong, let me know. If you want to be raid lead, let me know.)

All 30 raiders will be on the invite list, all raid leads will have moderator status. Raid leads are expected to manage the rotation and set ppl's status to "out" shortly before invites are done (or at the very least, notify me so that I can set ppl's status to "out").

How Will We Make Sure Rotations are Fair and Consistent?

This is an important question and the answer I'm about to give is sure to create a few unhappy folks...

There will be no mechanism in place to assure a fair and consistent roster rotation!!!

Raid leads will manage the rotation as they see fit. They are are however expected to abide to the following principles (which I know are somewhat contradictory):

- Choose a combination that is in the best interest of the RAID

- Enable an equal level of gearing across ALL raiders (we need to move away from the model where we have badly-geared replacements and awesomely geared regulars...everyone becomes a regular!)

- Above all else: Be fair!!!

So When Am I Expected to Sit Out?

You are expected to sit out when your raid lead tells you so, he will advise you shortly before the raid starts.

Why Does So-and-So Never Sit Out?

Another point that will surely create some unhappiness...

Raid leads have full discretionary power over who sits out when. I fully expect the raid leads to also opt to rarely sit out the star players. It would be unreasonable for our star players to sit out and totally impede progress in order to gear-up or have less able players "practice" on fights.

Could you imagine a scenario where Holyssa, Kailand and Markenhoof were to sit out all at once. It'd be a bucket load of fail on that night.

This is Totally Unfair, So-and-So Raid Lead Always has Me Sitting Out!

I want to shift ppl's mentality; a raid spot is not a right, it's a privilege! It's something you EARN and if you want to avoid getting rotated out you have to try mighty hard to impress your raid lead. Ultimately, being rotated out shouldn't be seen as a punishment but rather as a means of equalizing gear and experience throughout all raid member.

What About DKP?

Show up at raid start time and get rotated out, you'll get DKP. If you don't show up (and don't have a good reason) you'll lose DKP.

We Currently Have 24 Regulars, Where Will we Get More People?

We currently have 3 or 4 replacements looking to join us. They would immediately be affected by this change. We would also being an active recruitment campaign.

When Will This Take Effect?

Soon, if we can iron out all the details and can get some agreement from a good number of raiders.

Why?

Advantages:

- Because it helps us maintain 25 well geared raiders, regardless of absentees

- It helps progression because we have guaranteed experienced raiders with us

- It's appealing to our usual replacements, they are now able to be more involved and pursuit their own progression

- It creates an atmosphere of competitiveness where folks will want to improve to secure more a more stable raid spot

- It allows regular folks to take a day off and not feel guilty (I'm not sure folks feel guilty now).

Disadvantages:

- It's prone to favoritism and aggravates raid-politics

- People have to take breaks

- People who are less able or aren't as skillful tend to be penalized

- "Quality of rotation" is at the mercy of raid leads and their understanding of classes, roles, boss fights and the different ways a player contributes to the raid (i.e. Raid leads need to know what a player brings to the raid beyond the "meters")

Anyways, that is what I foresee in the near future. It's the only way we can be sustainable and this is more akin to the raid model currently adopted by other larger raiding guilds.

Please discuss, let me know your opinions...

Edited August 25, 2009 by Calendar

[Karrock]

A necessary evil I agree with-thanks for the clarification Zu.

1 Disagreement: we have made progress without Markenfail-sitting him out is no big deal-I can bandage and beat him on the heal meter.

<<this is a joke for all of you retards without a sense of humor, e.g. 20/25 ppl in this raid>>

1 Clarification: as far as dkp-if a raider is on time and asked to sit out, they get full dkp for the run, correct? Unless you go to a system in which anyone who gets an item does not acquire any dkp for that entire run from other drops...

I will volunteer to sit tonight, although I cannot be online at raid start On a serious note, will you accept voluntary sit-outs?

K

[Calendar]

A necessary evil I agree with-thanks for the clarification Zu.

1 Disagreement: we have made progress without Markenfail-sitting him out is no big deal-I can bandage and beat him on the heal meter.

<<this is a joke for all of you retards without a sense of humor, e.g. 20/25 ppl in this raid>>

1 Clarification: as far as dkp-if a raider is on time and asked to sit out, they get full dkp for the run, correct? Unless you go to a system in which anyone who gets an item does not acquire any dkp for that entire run from other drops...

I will volunteer to sit tonight, although I cannot be online at raid start On a serious note, will you accept voluntary sit-outs?

K

Disagreement: Haha funny...but seriously, I just picked 3 strong players. We can of course succeed with anyone of those folks missing for a night.

Clarification: I'm not 100% sure what amount of DKP I wanted to dish out for ppl showing up on time but being sit out. In theory the zero sum would have to be re-distributed among ALL raiders and not only 25. That's certainly more mathy that I'd like. To be honnest I was also thinking of overhauling the DKP system, but I figured 1 big change at a time. I don't ppl's head to explode.

Volunteer: Trust me when I say: I SERIOUSLY doubt we'll volunteers any time soon. On future occasions I'm sure the raid leads would be happy for folks to voluntarily take a break.

For tonight, I'm looking for no less than 5 replacements!!!! I need as much of our regulars on board as possible. This is a key opportunity for our replacements to get on board with this plan. Formalize their involve, get them geared and running like our regulars.

[Karrock]

Do we need to organize a quick naxx 25 man to get gear? Say Sunday night? I mean, I don't have any personal agenda in mind when I suggest going there or nothin'....

K

[Kalea]

It's 7:07 p.m., server time, on Tuesday and I can't log in. I keep getting a message that the login server is currently busy. Please try again later.

I'll be there if I can get past Blizzard's door monster.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Kalea

[Holyssa]

Season 6 is about to end, and Season 7 will be starting up.

"But Holy, Arena is teh suck!"

Perhaps. But there's one other reason to look forward to:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Koralon_the_Flame_Watcher

Ignis's palette-swap pal in the Vault's west tunnel will be up soon for T9 lovin'. Read up on his powers...fairly simple fight. And for good laughs: watch the embedded "tutorial" (they wipe XD )

Edited August 25, 2009 by Holyssa

[Holyssa]

Been doing some reading on the Faction Champs. For Science and Tankspot has a short thread with tips, but I picked out some tips/reminders we can keep in mind for later:

- Dispell EVERYTHING. Not sure if our locks had them out among the madness, but a Felhound may be of use here seeing as it's a pseudo-PvP fight.

- If we go with the burn 1 healer at a time strat (usually the druid): Keep any and all interrupters on the other two at all times, saving stuns and abilities for when spells are about to be cast. Much like Reliquary and Vezax, interrupters need to communicate when cooldowns are up. Even Cyclone will be of use here..anything to lock down the free healers. Putting all our eggs into one basket/assigning them to one target will just leave other mobs free to wreak havoc.

- Any NPC that can dispell WILL dispell. Even my judgements got picked off at random it seems. With that in mind, would it be worth keeping Unstable Affliction on the main burn target only?

- Confuse enemies with multi-target powers/summons. Army of the Dead, Snake trap, and Mirror Images come to mind, and while they last mere seconds against such strong foes, it buys healers time.

- Killing pet classes (hunter/warlock) will NOT despawn pets. Some strats suggest killing pets FIRST due to their low HP and general annoyance factor. The hunter "cat" generally has less HP than the felpuppy.

- If need be, assign 1 warlock to perma lock-down the tree via juggling Fear/Banish casts. Keep an eye out for Tremor totems: if Fear isnt working even long before diminishes, there's probably one on the field somewhere.

- When in doubt? Fear bomb!

- Little strat a deep-frost mage tried to keep the pally/warrior/DK on lock-down. English obviously isn't this guy's first language, but...:

Here's a nice strat for frost mages to CC one melle for the entire fight.

For this u need to go full frost, get all the abilities that increase chill duration.

Target the Pally, warrior or maybe the DK. I only tested it on the ret pally.

Start by casting polymorh on the pally, try to be far from everyone else, this way its less likely the adds will attack you and your frost novas wont break the other players CC. In all my tries the paladin was in right of the formation. I flanked him to cast the cc.

After the first 9 secs of poly, cast it again, u will have more 5 secs. Meanwhile u cant try to help dpsing the other adds.

When the poly is about to fade, cast frost nova. He wont move and he doesnt use BoP or hand of freedon, he will only cast a ranged ability that will cause 8k dmg. Frost nova have a 8 sec duration, cast deep freeze when it reaches 1 sec. This way he will be cc for another 5 secs. By the time deep freeze fades, the diminish return will also fade.

Start the rotation again, using poly, poly, frost nova, deep freeze. If your frost nova is in CD, cast cone of cold to slow him.

If any other melle attack you, use Ice Block immediately.

With this strat, u wont help much on dps, but will null one of the champions.

We only lost 3 members in this fight, and this was our second night of tries.

- The paladins will cast Hand of Protection on a champion when they have around 30% health. And much like a real pally, they WILL bubble-heal themselves at low life. Priests, beware!

- Kill totems asap. Windfury nearly pwned Holy's face a few times when the warrior suddenly became my new best friend.

- Assign tanks to specific mobs for kiting/stunning/"peeling" duty. Placing Hand of Protection on focus targets will scatter/confuse some NPCs, but keep moving in case they decide to turn around and whack the poor clothie nearby.

- Another poster on Tankspot posted this very nice cheat-sheet on locking down an NPC:

My first post here but I hope it helps someone with utilizing the DR to its fullest on this encounter.

I am not sure to what extent you will suffer from dispels (such as Tremor Totem, Shadow Priest dispel, Retribution Paladin dispel) but if it is not a major issue you can easily lock down two healers for any amount of time.

Depending on your setup you can chose a couple of different ways to do this, these two are just examples I came up with.

If you want to use as few as possible on the lockdown you can use a mage and a warlock (the -1 second off every casted CC is casttime/lag)

00.00 Polymorph (0% DR)

00.09 Polymorph (50% DR)

00.13 Polymorph (75% DR)

00.15 Fear (0% DR)

00.24 Fear (50% DR)

00.28 Fear (75% DR)

00.30 Polymorph (0% DR)

Another example of a complete lockdown on a healer:

00.00 Cheap Shot (0% DR)

00.04 Kidney Shot (0% DR)

00.10 Gouge (0% DR)

00.13 Freezing Arrow (0% DR)

00.22 Fear (0% DR)

00.31 Fear (50% DR)

00.35 Cheap Shot (0% DR)

00.39 Kidney Shot (0% DR)

00.45 Gouge (0% DR)

00.48 Freezing Arrow (0% DR) (Cooldown came off at 00.43)

This chain can be done twice or three times if you have Prep. Remember that if you replace the Fear with a Polymorph instead, you should NOT use the Gouge since it causes a 50% DR on Poly.

So, all in all you can utilize the perfect lockdown from knowing what shares DR.

Gouge/Sap/Polymorph

Howl of Terror/Psychic Scream/Fear/Seduce/Blind/Intimidating Shout/Mind Control

Kidney Shot/Gnaw/Intercept/Charge/Concussion Blow/Shockwave/Hammer of Justice/Maim/Bash

Cheap Shot/Pounce

Hibernate/Freezing Trap/Wyvern Sting

This might be a good time to link the DR Tracker I personally love to use in PvP: DR Tracker

You may have your own methods for tracking DR if you don't want to get that mod. Speaking of diminishing returns...

- From the For Science site:

CC'ing and Dealing with Diminishing Returns

For those unfamiliar with PVP, the following abilities share diminishing returns, so set up a CC rotation:

1. Gouge, Sap, Polymorph, Hungering Cold, Hex, Shackle Undead, Repentance

2. Howl of Terror, Psychic Scream, Fear, Blind, Intimidating Shout, Succubus's Charm (Warlock Succubus)

3. Mind Control, Seduction

4. Kidney Shot, Intercept, Feral Charge, Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Hammer of Justice, Maim, Bash, Gnaw (DK Ghoul)

5. Hibernate, Wyvern Sting

6. Cheap Shot, Pounce

7. Entangling Roots, Frost Nova

8. Death Coil, Psychic Horror

9. Cyclone

10. Entrapment

11. Banish

No Diminishing Return root/snares: Charge (since this is treated as a PVP fight?), Earth Shock, Hamstring, Freezing Trap, Frost Shock

[Karrock]

I tamed a gorilla the other day-if i can get him leveled to 80 by thurs maybe the extra pummel/stomp will help as well. Any other good pvp pets out there with interrupts/stuns?

K

[Holyssa]

Any other good pvp pets out there with interrupts/stuns?

Not all are stuns/interrupts, but..

Bats (Sonic Blast, 2 second stun)

Ravager (Ravage, 2 second stun)

Owls/Birds of Prey (Snatch, a 6 second disarm. Might help on the warrior/pally/DK)

Nether Ray (Nether Shock interrupt)

I got most of these from http://www.wow-petopia.com/html/skills/skills.html, which is bound to have a few more ideas.