Zuworty's Raid Information

[Kailand]

Any other good pvp pets out there with interrupts/stuns?

Not all are stuns/interrupts, but..

Bats (Sonic Blast, 2 second stun)

Ravager (Ravage, 2 second stun)

Owls/Birds of Prey (Snatch, a 6 second disarm. Might help on the warrior/pally/DK)

Nether Ray (Nether Shock interrupt)

I got most of these from http://www.wow-petopia.com/html/skills/skills.html, which is bound to have a few more ideas.

The stuns/interupts are on too long of a cooldown to be much help. even in PvP, most hunters use a DPS pet, or go with a crab (for thier root effect in an emergency situation). The biggest problem we are having is STAYING AWAY FROM THEM. Of course a Person is going to die if they don't move away from the big sword wielding warrior, etc.. That mean melee or even the interuptors if they have something that can take them out close by, they need to move without delay. We are laying down frost traps and using other slows to help out with this, and most classes have some sort of snare or get away techniques: use them. This fight is all about movement and situational awareness, as well as doing your part (i.e. purging/rooting/snaring/dispelling/tranq shot/ healing debuff/interupting/etc).

[Xenojin]

Just wanted to give some quick tips for you guys, did this the other day.

Killed the Shaman healer first (gotta purg/dispell earth sheild and obviously interupt his heals)

Killed Paladin healer second (Probably already wasted the BoP on the shaman so just burn/interupts)

Killed Druid healer third (tried countless attempts killing him first but his heals are enough of a ###### to burn through on top of the other 2 healers)

Killed Shadow Priest fourth (keep a slow effect up on him all times and its a easy kill)

Killed Rogue fifth (you can dis-arm the rogue as well as any other of the mobs, but you prob wanna keep it for rogue/warr/dk)

Killed Warrior sixth (Dis-arm as much as possible, stay outta bladestorm obviously)

And after that the rest was win, we only rolled with 6 healers, had 3 DK's in raid controlling most of the mobs, had a prot pally keeping the warrior under controll mostly till the bladestorm hits. Don't know if this helps out all but here ya go

[Kalea]

*brain explodes*

What's with all the mail about raids being cancelled and then having them on the calendar? Are we on or off for the month of September?

[Kailand]

*brain explodes*

What's with all the mail about raids being cancelled and then having them on the calendar? Are we on or off for the month of September?

*chuckles* what zuworty did was update info on one instance, and then copy pasted it through the calendar, and the calendar functionality deleted the old raid, and created a new one in its place. So no, they aren't cancelled, its just software being software, and zuworty being lazy .

[Calendar]

*brain explodes*

What's with all the mail about raids being cancelled and then having them on the calendar? Are we on or off for the month of September?

*chuckles* what zuworty did was update info on one instance, and then copy pasted it through the calendar, and the calendar functionality deleted the old raid, and created a new one in its place. So no, they aren't cancelled, its just software being software, and zuworty being lazy .

What he said =)

[Calendar]

Hey everyone,

Just a quick note on the price for the Crusader Trophies (T9.248 tokens).

The final DKP price I'm setting on these will be 110 DKP.

I didn't think it would be all that hard to figure out a price but apparently a lot of folks had strong opinions.

- I wanted a price point that would enable good rotation between raiders and make it fair for everyone (regardless of how many badges/DKP a person may have).

- I wanted to take into consideration the "badge cost" of the item

- I wanted to take into consideration the compromise a player makes when choosing a tier piece over another badge item.

So for those of you interested, what I did was:

- Compute the avg cost in DKP and in badges of tier (T9.248) items

- Compute the avg cost in DKP and in badges non-tier items

- Compute the % difference in between tier and non-tier items

- Discount the DKP cost of tier items based on the % difference

- Round the whole thing to an "easy-to-remember" number

So that's where the 110 DKP cost comes from.

[Karrock]

Tier 9 token cost discussion:

Pricing these so low will not provide an even distribution of tier loot. It will:

1) Encourage the raiders with the top dkp to gobble up all trophies, even though they will not be able to use them until they have enough badges

2) Those at the lower end of the dkp table will not get any tokens, even tho they will have enuff badges to use them.

You have pointed out the negatives in choosing tier loot over badge loot or regular drops and using this to justify the low price. Essentially what you are doing is taking the decision out of the mix. Now, it is a no brainer-if you had rolled this out prior to ulduar, you would have seen everyone hoarding dkp for this expansion. "Badge cost" is just another factor in choosing, a raider will not compromise crappier gear just for a few badges.

Remember, you can get 2 badges per day outside of the raid, this is a potential 14 badges in addition to the raid badges per week (6, 9, 12?). So full clear toc with 7 days of dailys is 26 badges per week.

Conclusion: the tier item token cost should be what their equivalent item is.

K

[Calendar]

Tier 9 token cost discussion:

Pricing these so low will not provide an even distribution of tier loot. It will:

1) Encourage the raiders with the top dkp to gobble up all trophies, even though they will not be able to use them until they have enough badges

2) Those at the lower end of the dkp table will not get any tokens, even tho they will have enuff badges to use them.

You have pointed out the negatives in choosing tier loot over badge loot or regular drops and using this to justify the low price. Essentially what you are doing is taking the decision out of the mix. Now, it is a no brainer-if you had rolled this out prior to ulduar, you would have seen everyone hoarding dkp for this expansion. "Badge cost" is just another factor in choosing, a raider will not compromise crappier gear just for a few badges.

Remember, you can get 2 badges per day outside of the raid, this is a potential 14 badges in addition to the raid badges per week (6, 9, 12?). So full clear toc with 7 days of dailys is 26 badges per week.

Conclusion: the tier item token cost should be what their equivalent item is.

K

You bring up good points Karrock.

I must also admit that the points you bring up I have thought of as well. I agree 100% with the dangers of putting the price of these items too low. There are quite a few ppl with tons of DKP that could gobble up all the tokens and I'm not too keen on influencing DKP prices based on factors that are external to the raid. However...

I cannot charge DKP based on the actual item, to do so would require me keeping track of the decisions folks took. I honestly don't have the patient or will to run around querying people and then verifying that what they told me is true.

The avg DKP cost per item amounts to approx. 165 DKP. If it's the raid's will, I will put it to a vote Tuesday. (110 Vs. 165).

It's up to folks to come up to their own conclusion as to whether or not a discounted price is worth it.

[Kailand]

Tier 9 token cost discussion:

Pricing these so low will not provide an even distribution of tier loot. It will:

1) Encourage the raiders with the top dkp to gobble up all trophies, even though they will not be able to use them until they have enough badges

2) Those at the lower end of the dkp table will not get any tokens, even tho they will have enuff badges to use them.

You have pointed out the negatives in choosing tier loot over badge loot or regular drops and using this to justify the low price. Essentially what you are doing is taking the decision out of the mix. Now, it is a no brainer-if you had rolled this out prior to ulduar, you would have seen everyone hoarding dkp for this expansion. "Badge cost" is just another factor in choosing, a raider will not compromise crappier gear just for a few badges.

Remember, you can get 2 badges per day outside of the raid, this is a potential 14 badges in addition to the raid badges per week (6, 9, 12?). So full clear toc with 7 days of dailys is 26 badges per week.

Conclusion: the tier item token cost should be what their equivalent item is.

K

The tokens are priced very close to what thecost of the gloves/shoulders are (I think they are about 130 DKP), so you are saving at most 1 DKP per badge (45 badges +token for gloves/shoulders, 75 badges + token for head/chest/legs). As it is for most classes the badge gear is superior to the tier gear in stats (comparing like slots)... about the only thing you gain by spending DKP is the set bonus. I personally think the DKP cost is a bit on the high side. Additionally people who take the tokens, without taking into account the badge cost, and haven't planned accordingly (i.e. haven't done the heroic dailies, aren't saving badges, etc) are hurting the raid. Don't forget the new VoA boss is coming out soon, should the people who take the tokens and use thier badges pay the same price as those who get the tier piece from the boss drop?

That being said, there are a lot of people in the raid who will pass on an item if somebody could use it more than they could, which is good for the health of the raid overall, but it tends to also amplify the DKP discrepencies between people. Unfortunately this is the draw back of DKP, about the only fix is to 'reset' or 'normalize' the DKP periodically.

anyways these are my thoughts and ramblings on the subject.

[Calendar]

The other thing that could fix the problem (and something I was thinking about)...is overhauling our DKP system.

So here is what I was thinking of doing in place of our current system:

- Fixed DKP amount per boss

- Fixed DKP amount per hour

- Closed bidding system

- No negative DKP amounts (min set to 0)

- Capped DKP amounts (max set to 100)

- Minimum bids (10% of total DKP)

- Not zeroSum based

There are several pros and cons to this system:

- Prevents massive DKP holes

- Prevents hoarding (spend-it or lose-it)

- Items are only worth what raiders are willing to bid for it

- Players will pay a premium to get items first

- It obligates players to keep track of the gear that drops and who has picked up what (which will either promote a greater cooperation between players or introduce more competition for items)

- Rarer items will go for more

- People will need to get used to the !bid <amount> command

- Distribution may take more time initially

- Stagnant loot distribution may mean that a lot folks reach their caps (awards will need to be carefully choosen)

Obviously to enable this system everyone will get their DKP re-normalized between 0 and 100.

Any thoughts?

[Karrock]

re: trophies under the current system-

We could make it mandatory to have enuff badges for the tier item prior to bidding for the trophies. If there is no one eligible (which would be in the early stages only), then it would go to the highest dkp only. This would prevent trophy hoarding and allow those that have done their extra-raid diligence (e.g. daily) to benefit.

If you bid on a trophy and show up to the next raid without the tier piece it is a substantial penalty (like -100 dkp).

I have to think more about the 0 to 100 system. At first glance the item costs would have to be revisited.

re: normalization-

With new people joining the raid (+6) there may be a need to do this.

K

[Lomar]

Why don't we just get rid of DKP all together and come up with some kind of rolling system? I don't see the big need for DKP in a 25 man setting.

[Maube]

Just wanted to give you a little headsup on the Champions...

A Mage and a boomkin can do very well keeping a healer CCed, sure they are going to get a couple of heals off but I know I can usually keep one (usually the holy priest for me) CCed with another Boomkin, interrupting big heals. Our Arcane Mage really loves to slow up the pally healer and with another druid can keep him busy.

Also one warlock can usually keep the Resto druid banished and feared for pretty much the whole fight.

CCers - if you dont already have it - make a macro to quickly target your CC target. If you have a partner make sure you have another macro that whispers your partner when you are hitting the Diminishing returns. This fight is like Gruul... intial pull is chaos but once you kill the first two it gets easier and easier.

STAY MOVING and have one healer focusing on dispelling the group.

Oh and if you do CC a lot... you CANNOT afford to be careless and dps the targets that are CCd.

[Calendar]

Why don't we just get rid of DKP all together and come up with some kind of rolling system? I don't see the big need for DKP in a 25 man setting.

To some extent I agree with you Lomar. It would seem that as we move on DKP is becoming less and less relevant. The truth is that the folks that do their homework, work outside of the raid and strategize typically obtain items first.

Despite having normalized the numbers before Ulduar it seems like we're back in the same boat. I don't want to normalize again because it's a never ending loop. Normalization isn't a totally fair process because some folks have legitimately earned their DKP hole/hoard. It was meant to help out new folks or people who were undergeared to begin with. Besides, normalization takes me a few hours to do, it's tedious and sucks big fat donkey dick.

We can nitpick all the reasons why the current DKP system doesn't work, ultimately I want to try finding a solution that is more sustainable and scalable over time.

Karrock:

As for your suggestion, you would introduce a significant amount of work to the DKP system. We'd need to verify all bidding players prior to each trophy bid and then validate that the proper piece was bought at the start of the subsequent raid. With a rotating roster this becomes more challenging because that person may or may not be present for the next raid.

The 0 to 100 system is based on closed bidding. Meaning items have NO VALUE, players bid a portion of their DKP to win the item (like a real auction). This mix a bit of randomness, a bit DKP status and a bit of raid diligence all together.

[Karrock]

Cal-

Can you put together an example of how the 0-100 would work? Couple questions:

1) would you lose your dkp if you bid and didnt win?

2) what would each boss/time be worth? 1, 2, 5 or 10 dkp?

3) would you normalize everyone into the 0-100 range?

This is a good idea and i think it might work out for this raid and be the easiest to implement...

K

[Calendar]

1) would you lose your dkp if you bid and didnt win?

No, that is not how an auction works.

2) what would each boss/time be worth? 1, 2, 5 or 10 dkp?

I would expect in 1 DKP per Boss range.

3) would you normalize everyone into the 0-100 range?

That would be the first thing done before switching.

Example Scenario:

- We kill Kologarn.

- Everyone who has less than 100DKP is awarded 1 DKP.

- First item goes up for bid.

- Folks who are interested send me a WHISPER with their bid. (If ppl shout their bid into the raid chat than that's their problem).

- Minimum bid is 10% of your DKP (i.e. if you have 100DKP you must be no less than 10DKP, if you have 10DKP you must bid no less than 1DKP).

- Person with the highest bid wins the item.

- Auction winner is docked the amount he bid.

[Kalea]

re: trophies under the current system-

We could make it mandatory to have enuff badges for the tier item prior to bidding for the trophies. If there is no one eligible (which would be in the early stages only), then it would go to the highest dkp only. This would prevent trophy hoarding and allow those that have done their extra-raid diligence (e.g. daily) to benefit.

If you bid on a trophy and show up to the next raid without the tier piece it is a substantial penalty (like -100 dkp).

K

Just my two cents....

I think this is a bit much. Everyone works on collecting emblems of triumph as they can. Some of us have lives, Karrock, and don't always have the opportunity to run the daily heroic every day. If you are fortunate to have both a 10 and 25 man raid, they do add up quickly.

I'd like to see everyone get a trophy and then start through the list again. It would distribute the T9 pieces more evenly and gear us all up as we go.

[Andor]

some people think the top people are hording dkp thats not the fact for some of us as there is like 2 upgrades left in all of ulduar unless we do hard modes. i know i will not bid on a trophy till i have the emblems to buy it i hope most people do the same or dont get two at least untill you can buy the first one. i personally find our dkp system runs just fine but i am at the top.

[Orcala]

Just my two cents....

I think this is a bit much. Everyone works on collecting emblems of triumph as they can. Some of us have lives, Karrock, and don't always have the opportunity to run the daily heroic every day. If you are fortunate to have both a 10 and 25 man raid, they do add up quickly.

I'd like to see everyone get a trophy and then start through the list again. It would distribute the T9 pieces more evenly and gear us all up as we go.

Uh oh Kaleas laying the smackdown on ya Karrock!! Where's Roy to protect you??

[Martok]

TOO COMPLICATED!

[Waldonnis]

TOO COMPLICATED!

^^ This

Honestly, why all of the drama? It's not like we're blistering along here and on the verge of Icecrown Citadel (we can't even do a hardmode in Ulduar). We'll see enough trophies drop to get a few for everyone, so why not just lob one out to each person to shore up their weakest slot, then keep going down the list (likely sorted by attendance)? This would ensure that the regulars at least are working towards their new sets. Replacements or non-regulars can continue to bid on other drops and Ulduar tier tokens and could be given consideration for trophies once a round of trophies are obtained by the regular roster.

Simple is better. Making the system overly complex or trying to shoehorn it to fit into the existing DKP system just won't work well since there are external factors at play (emblem acquisition rate varies by person).

As for emblems and loot in general...

/rant on

I'll be the first to admit, I don't do the heroic daily even once per week most of the time, so my acquisition of emblems is slow. People can say this is hurting the raid all they want. The same could be said for anyone not raiding 10-man Ulduar or anything else, but that's not anyone in the raid's business how I or anyone else spend our time away from the raid.

To be blunt: shut your f-ing trap about what I or anyone else chooses to do in their non-raid time. We have people that don't even do their research on boss fights and you're concerned with whether or not someone does the daily heroic every day of the week?

All of this concern about "amassing trophies"...what's the point of doing that anyway? If you can't buy the tier piece due to lack of emblems, what are you going to do, stare at the friggin trophy in your bank saying "My precioussss"? Seriously, people, if it's done by DKP and you can't be mature enough to pass on something like this if you already have one that you can't use...

Too much lootwhoring and not enough working together lately is part of what's holding us back. I see more concerned talk about loot distribution and who gets what than how to beat the fights like Yogg or the Faction Champs. News flash: this raid isn't the cutting edge of progression (NOT EVEN CLOSE), so get past the BS and focus on things that matter. More dead bosses means more trophies or whatever, so focus more on non-gear-related improvement than loot.

/end rant

[Andor]

dang server =x

[Calendar]

You bring some really valid points Waldy...

I guess much of the reason why there's been a lot of DKP discussion on my part is because I've never been quite happy with what we have now. With the 6 new people in the raid I figured now was a good time to change if we decide that is right for us. DKP is something "easy" that can be modified and tailored to help folks take a second look at their gear and strategize their upgrade path.

Since this a quickly devolving topic I think the best I can do now is keep the status quo. Don't touch DKP, charge the trophies based on avg. DKP price, and hope everyone gets along.

'll be the first to admit, I don't do the heroic daily even once per week most of the time, so my acquisition of emblems is slow. People can say this is hurting the raid all they want. The same could be said for anyone not raiding 10-man Ulduar or anything else, but that's not anyone in the raid's business how I or anyone else spend our time away from the raid.

In response to that I'd like to add:

I *STRONGLY* believe in what Waldy is saying here. If you participate in activities external to the raid than all the better, but I will *NOT* impose or force people to do things beyond the allotted 6 hours of raid every week. I also will *NOT* (to the best of my abilities) give special privileges, DKP benefits or any other kind of favorable advantage to folks for doing this kind of activity.

It is not fair to other people in the raid and certainly does not promote better team synergy.

My assessment of players is done solely based on their performance WITHIN the raid.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Calendar