25man Achievements!

[Calendar]

Hey guys,

I was talking with some of you late last night with regards to the Naxxramas portion of our raid schedule.

I got the impression that many of you find the place quite unchallenging and most only have a couple of upgrades left in there (and mostly from the last bosses).

That being said, some of the raiders expressed an interest in pursuing the set of achievements associated with Naxx.

Now before I put tons of time and effort planning out the details of these achievements, I wanted to get people's thoughts regarding this.

Note that some of these achievements REQUIRE that we rotate people out of the raid for a week (though I'd try to minimise that as much as possible).

For those of you looking to get the title and special mount, I think we have to be a little more realistic here. The title and mount are being removed in patch 3.1, meaning we'd have to get ALL achievements done by then (which is HIGHLY doubtful).

Personally, I think achievements are fun to do, but they are nothing more than a pleasant distraction. I'd rather not become an achievement-oriented raid.

Please let me know how you feel about it. Either leave a post or answer the pole (or both!).

Thanks,

Zu

[Holyssa]

Titles, mach-10 lizards, and the steaming pile of awesome that is the sense of accomplishing these tasks aside:

I think accomplishing the 25-man Achievements is a great way to show that as a guild & tight-knit band of raiders, we can push ourselves to learn and conquer obstacles that are a real test of coordination, raid discipline (in before "douche"), and dedication to accomplishing a series of tasks.

After witnessing how quickly we learned to thwomp Sarth +2D, I think we can definitely do this stuff. But it's gonna be tough, as most of these will require wiping & lots of number-crunching just to make sure the attempts go picture perfect (Shocking! comes to mind almost immediately).

[Kailand]

I like the idea of achievements and yes, I am an Achievement Whore. I disagree with blizzards decision to remove the drakes from the raiding achievements (it's not like the gear is going to improve the chance at getting the meta achievement).

The reason I like the achievements is several fold: gives new challenge to the current content, it will provide good training for future content, and it is fun to have a goal other than gear once you beat the last boss. As for the 20 man achievements... blizzard was rather stupid for adding those in, but I'd be willing to sit out one week so that we can all get that one, but I'd rather we aim for the once we can do as a full group instead since as you said the odds of us completing the rest are fairly low considering we have a minimum of 4 raid IDs to do it in (6 min malygos.... uck).

The ones I mean that are doable as a full group are: the immortal (no one dieing at all during boss encounters for a full clear), spore loser (do not kill a spore during loatheb), And They Would All Go Down Together (killing the 4-horseman with in 15 seconds of eachother), Shocking (no one taking damage from a charge during thaddius), and Make quick werk of him (kill patchwerk in less than 3 Min).

[Calendar]

Well the plan would be that to take 1 week to achieve ALL standard full-group achievements and 2 weeks to achieve the <21 man group ones...for a total of 3 weeks. That would also mean no screwing up on the first week!

[Tizaria]

I personally love achievements. I think most of them are a good addition to the game (baring the stupid zomg rng <3 meh ones).

I've been around in the game a while, I know I've said it before but after a while... it's all just new skins same fight. ie zotzot git out de spotspot

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Kailand /kills self Still though he makes some very good points that I feel the same way about. And Kail, just so you don't get a big head... /kick in teh shins

I would absolutely love to get as many of these done as possible and will spec however you need me to spec for it. I'll even work up a new bunny macro just for achieves if it will help motivate

[Martok]

I'll even work up a new bunny macro just for achieves if it will help motivate

/cut wrists

[Xenojin]

i was gonna vote yes....but since tiz made the macro comment, i voted no!

[Holyssa]

I'll even work up a new bunny macro just for achieves if it will help motivate

You must construct additional (bunny) pylons macros!

[Tizaria]

See? Bunny macros help motivate people. Maybe not in the way intended the you can't deny they help the motivation process. So Nur ta yas /shakes rear

/makes even more bunny macros

[Waldonnis]

Feel free to rotate me completely out for the undermanning ones, as I have no interest at all in the meta achievements or even most of the raiding ones at all.

That being said, there are a few ways to improve the odds of getting some of the more challenging ones...

Shocking is more likely done with a smaller group, so the undermanned nights would be good for that one. Also, modify the strategy to move in a box and position itself in more of a "corners of the box", allowing for more room to move away from either side without getting squished against the walls as easily.

Spore Loser is obvious and is best done with a full group. Taiden will also have to abstain from his addiction to Army of the Dead...they do kill spores. Same goes for any abilities that could do damage to something hitting a player, including thorns, imps' fire shield, mages' molten armour, etc.

The hardest from a raid performance standpoint will likely be a 3min Patchwerk. Honestly, the easiest that I've even heard of this being done is by one of two methods: swapping some healers out for dps, or going with one tank and *all* ranged dps (along with healers, of course...this is likely not an option for this raid). If we attempt this one, *full* buffs will likely be helpful, including optimal flasks/elixirs that most of us don't bother with currently.

The hardest overall will be The Immortal....but that's obvious.

...and that's just Naxx.

6min Malygos (You Don't Have An Eternity) is possible, but may require a strategy shift to ensure sparks are stacked as much as possible. Short-handing Malygos (A Poke In The Eye) will also be extremely rough barring the same strategy shift. Spark stacking is essential for both of these and the "luck of the draw" spawn points won't cut it for the latter achievement given that the raid already hovers close to the enrage timer even with a full compliment.

[Calendar]

Here is a tentative schedule for the proposed Naxxramas achievements:

(I know the schedule is pretty hectic, but as I understand Ulduar will be making its way out sooner rather than later).

Tuesday March 3rd:

Spider Wing: [Heroic: Arachnophobia] -- Clear the Spider Wing in 20min (timer starts after Anub'Rekhan's death)

Patchwerk: [Heroic: Make Quick Werk Of Him] -- Kill him within 3min

Heigan: [Heroic: The Safety Dance] -- No one can die

Grand Widow Faerlina: [Heroic: Momma Said Knock You Out] -- Cannot dispel the boss' frenzy (most folks should already have this)

Thaddius: [Heroic: Shocking!] -- No charges must be crossed

Loatheb: [Heroic: Spore Loser] -- No one must obtain the Spore buff

Four Horsemen: [Heroic: And They Would All Go Down Together] -- All horseman must die within 15 seconds of one another

Saphirron: [Heroic: The Hundred Club] -- No one with Frost Resist above 100

Kel'Tuzad: [Heroic: Just Can't Get Enough] -- Kill 18 Abominations

Requirements:

- We'll need to bump down to no more than 6 healers (for DPS reasons on Patchwerk). Since Tizaria has offered to respec already, I need 1 more healer volunteer to respec (please don't volunteer if you don't have a DPS set).

- [Heroic: Shocking!] is gonna require slightly better placement and MUCH better timing on the part of certain individuals.

- [Heroic: Spore Loser] is gonna require EVERYONE to avoid ANY type of multi-target DPS.

- [Heroic: And They Would All Go Down Together] is gonna require a specific strategy (I will post on this soon).

- [Heroic: Make Quick Werk Of Him] will require EVERYONE with a food buff AND a Flask/Elixir buff.

- Due to the shear number of achievements for this night, please expect us to go over our usual time limit by 15 to 30min (hopefully it won't be such a big deal).

Tuesday March 10th:

[Heroic: The Dedicated Few] -- Defeat the bosses of Naxxramas with less than 21 people (Group 1)

Thaddius: [Heroic: Subtraction] -- Kill Thaddius with less than 21 people (Group 1)

Requirements:

- We'll need to bump down to 6 healers again for this (we'll need the DPS, besides less people also means less individuals to heal).

Tentative Rotation:

Orcala, Zeniita, Remmetta, Kalea

Tuesday March 17th:

[Heroic: The Dedicated Few] -- Defeat the bosses of Naxxramas with less than 21 people (Group 2)

Thaddius: [Heroic: Subtraction] -- Kill Thaddius with less than 21 people (Group 2)

Requirements:

- We'll need to bump down to 6 healers again for this (we'll need the DPS, besides less people also means less individuals to heal).

Tentative Rotation:

Hingon, Perthes, Tizaria, Uglutz

Tuesday March 24th:

[The Immortal] -- No one dies on any of the Naxxramas boss fights

? -- Any of the previously unsucceeded achievements

A few notes:

- For the first night of achievements I will be calling wipes on any bosses where the achievement has failed (as long as it remains reasonable to do so). Worst case scenario we will need to kill the last remaining bosses on Thursday.

- I will be picking individuals being rotated out. Please don't argue with me on this...since the consensus is that folks want these achievements, this is the price we have to pay.

- NONE of these achievements are seen as being mandatory. If we fail at any, I will not go out of my way to try them again.

- Many of the achievements require individual raiders to listen carefully and act both efficiently and with purpose. Any player causing the failure of an achievement due to a lack of focus or a lack understanding will be held responsible. (They will need to explain themselves).

Malygos & Sartherion

Seeing as we are still working on getting Malygos comfortably on farm I will not be pursuing any of the EoE achievements. As for Sartherion, the main goal is to first get comfortable with Sarth +2D and then move on to Sarth +3D. Until that occurs, none of the other achievements will be scheduled. (Loot + progression > Achievements)

Regards,

Zu

Edited March 4, 2009 by Calendar

[Holyssa]

- [Heroic: Spore Loser] is gonna require EVERYONE to avoid ANY type of multi-target DPS.

As of 3.0.8, this is false. The achievement is gone from the meta, since it had so many bugs/problems with not going off during WotLK's release.

http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=2138

However, if we still wish to pursue it before Naxx becomes alt-fodder, there's a great guide here, which requires a Demo-Shout spamming warrior:

http://mirrorshield.blogspot.com/2009/02/h...oser-guide.html

[Orcala]

On the Wednesday night douche run with Karrock we got almost all the achievements in Naxx in one night so at least I have a idea of what they will be. (like staying alive during the safety dance fight!) I know the heroic 25 is obviously a bit harder, but we could pull off all the achievements by the time the patch comes out!

[Karrock]

I voted I don't care: it would be nice to do, but I don't need it (like many of you douches).

My only suggestion would be to do Maly and OS on the first night, then the remaining 1 1/2 days can take as long as needed for Naxx.

K

[Holyssa]

Something to seriously consider for "Shocking!":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzTwsk4Hy3c

This is the famous four-point strategy used long ago to kill 40-man Thaddius. Skip to about 2:50 minutes in, and even if your connection fails hard at life, turn on Hi Definition mode. The stuff prior to that is just Feugen & Stalagg. They did not make master happy.

The fight back then was exactly the same, picture the area around Thaddius as if it had a "square" with four points:

- Everyone begins standing in one spot, typically around the tank. Thaddius is dragged to an open spot.

- During the first polarity change, Positives go right (counter-clockwise if you're facing the boss). Negatives will go left (clockwise). Getting the first shift correct is the trickiest part, and even 2 or 3 folks got jolted in the movie due to not being fast enough.

- During the next shift:

~If your polarity changes, go left.

~If it remains the same, go right.

- Repeat, and watch your combat log for accidental shocks. It is of utmost importance to leave your tunnel vision at the door with this tactic.

- Don't forget to stack up tightly on top of each other, including your tank!

[Remm]

Requirements:

- We'll need to bump down to no more than 6 healers (for DPS reasons on Patchwerk). Since Tizaria has offered to respec already, I need 1 more healer volunteer to respec (please don't volunteer if you don't have a DPS set).

Zu,

I will switch to dps if you have not gotten a volunteer yet, just let me know.

[Calendar]

Ok...better late than than never, but here's the plan for tonight:

Tizaria and Remmetta will be respec'ing for DPS.

Here's a quick overview of the more difficult achievements (with respects to execution):

[Heroic: Spore Loser]

For this achievement we will NOT be taking the route proposed by Holyssa's web link. We have a single DPS warrior and I think it'd be best to have him DPSing

Instead we'll have Kadi healing with Righteous Fury up. She can tank the spores with the help of Ascoli.

Remember, DO NOT use multi-target abilities!

[Heroic: Shocking!]

Holyssa's recommended strategy is quite good. (If you guys have the time, I recommend watching the video, it's like looking into a kaleidoscope!)

Unfortunately, I think without more time to practice and due to the complexity of the tactic, we're better off sticking to something that is more familiar.

I will however shift the positive and negative groups so that they are diagonally opposed from each other (rather than face-to-face). This should maximize the distances and help prevent any shockings.

[Heroic: And They Would All Go Down Together]

So I did this achievement in 10man and had a bit of a hard time coming up with a tactic that isn't going to be pure chaos. Taking a page from Holyssa's wonderful tactic website, I propose using the strategy described here:

http://mirrorshield.blogspot.com/2009/01/h...ll-go-down.html

We will use 6 "tank"+healer pairs (3 for the front, 3 for the back) as well as 4 DPS groups (2 for the front, 2 for the back).

The groups are as follows (this still assumes Tizaria and Remmetta are spec'd as Shadow):

FG1 Ascoli/Kadiana

FG2 Holyssa/Uglutz

FG3 Tyrandius/Bralor

FDPS1 Orcala/Elrikk/Foroshell/Xenojin

FDPS2 Vierendelen/Taidenewy/Zuworty

===================================

BG1 Kailand/Kalea

BG2 Karrock/Lorgan

BG3 Perthes/Markenhoof

BDPS1 Draegoth/Jestin/Remmetta

BDPS2 Zenitta/Hingon/Tizaria

- DPS groups rotate to the next boss every 3 stacks.

- "Tank Groups" rotate as follows: Boss1 -> Boss2-> Middle (no debuffs)

- Healers ALWAYS follow their designated tank and must heal ALL DPS currently hitting the boss at which they are stationed

- DPS groups hitting Thane and Baron MUST move as a single entity in order not to cause unnecessary damage due to meteors.

- DPS all targets to 10% (and no less than 5%) and a CONTROLLED burn down to 0% afterwards.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Calendar

[Ascoli]

Just some notes/comments for the front groups on the 4-horsemen achievement...

Ok, so we messed up the rotation a couple times and I hadn't seen the post about the strategy we'd be using so I didn't have a chance to read up on it.

3 group rotation strategy:

Apart from the "doing stupid stuff" issue here is the key point that was missed when the strategy was explained over TS:

All the rotations (including DPS) must be done keeping the meteors in mind...

This makes the rotations slightly more complicated than rotate at X amount of marks:

* Thane DPS group should wait until the Rivendare DPS group relieves them before moving out to Rivendare.

* The middle group should wait for a meteor (and their Thane stacks to run out) before they run in to relieve the Thane group.

* The Thane group should wait to be relieved AND for a meteor before they run out to relieve Rivendare group.

* The Rivendare group just moves out to the middle whenever they get relieved.

All this is done to avoid a tank/healer group getting hit by a meteor (which will most likely kill the healer).

(Check out the link Zu posted, it explains everything in detail.)

2 group strategy:

This is basically just swapping Rivendare and Thane around so it's quite a bit simpler than the 3-group rotation:

* Everyone (including tanks) stays in their respective corners.

* Tanks wait until 2-3 marks AND a meteor before doing the switch.

[Karrock]

Missed the Patchwerk ach by 8 secs. Any chance this is the outcome of folks passing up the small upgrades in gear to hoard dkp?

K

[Orcala]

Missed the Patchwerk ach by 8 secs. Any chance this is the outcome of folks passing up the small upgrades in gear to hoard dkp?

K

Umm yeah probably... I say we dump dkp for a new start once Uldar comes out to avoid people doing this. (Uldar won't probably be out for at least a month)

[Holyssa]

Missed the Patchwerk ach by 8 secs.

- We need about 70k overall raid DPS to do this (24k for 10-man). Think we got 69,333 according to that last WWS. Not sure where exactly the problem is (I spend most of the fight playing Simon with my cooldowns, and I'm still looking at the full log), but that averages out to around 4200+ DPS per...err, DPSer. Hmm...

- Keep Amplify Magic on all 3 tanks. That way we stay alive during Enrage next time, seeing as it's all physical damage, and it will provide a considerable boost to the offtank with Bacon of Light

EDIT: Little tips in regards to Puff the Magic Dragon...

- Curse of Elements should be refreshed during the P1-P2 transition. I'm pretty sure some debuffs still remain on Malygos. If they don't, could we use the warlock suicide trick (dismount, chuck CoE on the boss during P3)?

- To save time and get stacks started early, Malygos in P3 can be targeted as soon as he finishes the phrase "...ten times over!" in his RP speech.

- In the event of a wipe call, don't wait for Malygos to kill you in P3. Just dismount, and let gravity do the hard work for you.

- The enrage timer is NOT synched to the Achievement timer if we plan to shoot for 6 minutes. Someone with their eyes peeled should turn on the Achievement timer via checking off the box in the Achievement menu. Make sure the timer resets between wipes as well.

- If you have trouble with stacking debuffs, here's some rotations you can try out (use the Aces High daily to practice if needed), taken from Wowhead. 1 is the fire attack, 2 is the stacking flame debuff. Nrg = energy, respectfully.

- Speed stack rotation: 1, wait for 100 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 95 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 90 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 85 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 80 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 75 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 70 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 65 nrg, 2, 1, 1, wait for 50 nrg, 2, 1, 1, wait for 70 nrg, 2, 1, 1, wait for 90 nrg, 2 <repeat>. It's a very tight rotation often letting the DoT reach 1 second remaining, but stacks DoTs up the fastest, which I can confirm to work as long as you have good FPS and latency. Any lag will cause this rotation to fail.

- Reliable DPS rotation: 1, wait for 100 nrg, 2, 1 wait for 85 nrg, 2, 1, wait for 70 nrg, 2, 1, 1, wait for 50 nrg, 2, 1, 1, wait for 50 nrg... keep up 1, 1, 2 rotation.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Holyssa

[Calendar]

So I neglected to ask...

Instead of doing 2 weeks of 20man achievements...are there any 4 individuals that wouldn't mind sitting out? If I can get 2 healers and 2 DPS who really don't care for achievements we can bump it down to 1 week. (Volunteers would get the equivalent in DKP -- and I could even be persuaded to add in a bit more DKP to account for missing out on potential loot).

Give it some thought folks...if I get no volunteer than I'll proceed as planned (with 2 weeks).

[Markenhoof]

I really dont care as much as some about the raid achievements. I will be willing to sit so you can finish in 1 week.

[Perthes]

I dont mind sitting out.. I may need a break anyway hehe.

[Karrock]

I would also volunteer to sit out.

Maybe if the 20 man is the VERY LAST achievement before the award (pre-Ulduar), then maybe we can revisit for the folks that sat out. If not, its a moot point.

K