Zuworty's Raid Information

[Martok]

Hey folks. Sorry but I'll be absent tonight AGAIN. I am still out of town and will be working pretty darn late tonight. I already sent Zu a PM on the forums. I hope to get this stuff back under control in short order! If not, I'll let Zu know so he can remove me from the roster in place of someone that can be more reliable. Sorry!

[Qiris]

Barring another flood, I will be there Tuesday night. I don't think Tain's computer parts will get here in time for him for Tuesday though.

[Kailand]

Barring another flood, I will be there Tuesday night. I don't think Tain's computer parts will get here in time for him for Tuesday though.

YaY!

[Kalea]

Barring another flood, I will be there Tuesday night. I don't think Tain's computer parts will get here in time for him for Tuesday though.

Fantastic!

On another note, Zuworty, November 26 is the American Thanksgiving Holiday. A lot of us will be spending the day with family and friends. For those of you with plans, please decline on the calendar so that Zu has a real idea how many people won't be around.

[Calendar]

Real raiders don't have holidays! Now get back to perfecting those rotations!

[Scryll]

Real raiders recognize holidays are another raid. Resetting the conversation with your mother by asking for her help in the kitchen, beating your drunken uncle's seven-minute enrage timer, keeping the spawn from running all over the place uncontrolled, it's a raid.

[Mareak]

Real raiders recognize holidays are another raid. Resetting the conversation with your mother by asking for her help in the kitchen, beating your drunken uncle's seven-minute enrage timer, keeping the spawn from running all over the place uncontrolled, it's a raid.

[Orcala]

I'm not going to be able to make it to the raid tomorrow due to this school project I got going (don't want to fail). I'm having Holy cancel my attendance for the day.

Good luck!

[Maalick]

I will be unavailable for Thanksgiving. I will decline my invite as soon as I get back on WoW. Good luck hunting all.

[Calendar]

I will be unavailable for Thanksgiving. I will decline my invite as soon as I get back on WoW. Good luck hunting all.

Thanks Maalick...

To everyone else...

Like I mentioned in Tuesday's raid, it's understandable that people will want to take off for Thanksgiving. All I ask is that you please update your attendance status on the calendar. The more informed I am the better off I'll be to make a call as to whether we are raiding regardless, canceling or maybe forming some kind of 10man run or retro run.

Thank you for being considerate,

Zu

[Calendar]

DKP System

Hey everyone,

This is the second time I want to serious tackle the topic of DKP within the raid. I admit that must attempt to introduce change did not pan out because it was done too close to the release of ToC. This time however, Icecrown Citadel is still some time away, it should give us more room to discuss and agree on changes.

So here is what we have today:

- ZeroSum (DKP bid gets redistributed to the raid)

- Fixed item cost (item prices are preset based on iLvl and slot)

- Auction based distribution (ppl have to bid)

- Penalty based DKP loss (i.e. missing flasks, food buffs, etc.)

- Off-spec items can be rolled on or bought (at full price)

Here are some of the options I would be willing to adopt (doesn't need to be ALL or any one particular option):

Gaining DKP:

- ZeroSum (give out X DKP when an item is purchased)

- Raid presence (give out X DKP per hour or some arbitrary time slot)

- Boss kills (give out X DKP per boss kill)

- Raid attendance (give out X DKP when you show up)

Item Cost:

- Fixed (item cost is pre-calculated)

- Variable (item cost is based on the amount bid by players -- could have min/max values -- silent or public auctions)

Distribution:

- Bidding

- Loot council (this can mean anything really -- it involves raid leads stepping in and managing the distribution somehow)

- Round-robin

Losing DKP:

- Penalty based (i.e. not following raid policies)

- DKP loss based on attendance (ppl naturally lose X DKP every raid -- i.e. your DKP "erodes" over time)

Other Options:

- Instate a minimum and/or maximum amount of DKP any one person could have

- Off-spec items can be rolled on

- Off-spec are all for sell for a small DKP premium

So I tried giving out all the different options I had in mind. There are some restrictions in what I can and what I'm willing to do. I'm still gonna base our DKP system on the webdkp mod and website and I'm going to restrict our DKP capabilities based on these mechanisms. If I don't do this than maintaining DKP becomes far too time consuming.

Please give me your opinions, let me know which options you like and which you don't.

Regards,

Zu

[Markenhoof]

One change I would like to see is zero being the lowest you can go dkp wise. I think this, along with a ceiling, whatever it is, 500 or whatever, would promote more people to bid on upgrades that aren't necessarly BiS items. I actually like the zero sum feature, but maybe also giving some dkp on a per hour basis for nights when all we do is wipe on new bosses or Hard Modes would prompt more people to show up. I know it sounds like bribing a bad child with candy but I think it would work to improve attendance. Eroding DKP would also be good if there was a cap on DKP so players couldnt get "capped" and either wait on an item or not attend the raid. Either way you do it Zu doesnt bother me. We will all get a chance for upgrades. I think boss strategy and figuring out why we cant do hard modes that are a tier behind us should be a bigger priorty for most of the raiders instead of how do I master the dkp system for the best loot.

Just my opinion,

Mark

[Calendar]

Thanks Markenhoof...

I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying.

DKP is being talked about now because when this stuff changes I'd rather not have folks crying about how they didn't know. (Nothing seems to irk people more than when you start playing with their DKP).

As for hard modes, if you have suggestions go right ahead and post them, I'm all ears.

[Ascoli]

I'm basically of the same opinion as Markenhoof for the DKP system:

- Same system as we have now.

- Minimum of 0 and some maximum. (I guess this should depend on the tier of content. Maybe 3x the average cost of items?)

- Some DKP per hour (or per raid night).

Maybe:

- "Eroding" DKP (In my opinion this is both good and bad: good in the sense that if you don't raid your dkp goes down, but it's also bad for replacements that only come once in a while to give us a hand... I'm not sure what to suggest, maybe different decay rates for regulars vs replcements? That seems like a lot of work.)

What I don't want to see:

- Variable item cost, specially with silent auctions.

- Cost for off-spec items. (Obviously because I'm a paladin, doesn't seem fair as I have 3 possible specs with no gear overlap.)

---

As for hard modes, only thing I can suggest is EVERYONE go look at videos (even if you only look at one video, for most fights it's at most 10 minutes of your time). Obviously these might not reflect our exact strategy, but it might give people ideas about how they could improve their performance on specific fights. Zu has the last word about strategy, but he shouldn't have to micromanage what everyone is doing.

In any case, here's the TankSpot hard mode Iron Council video:

- Iron Council

[Waldonnis]

Eliminating negative dkp won't help much in the absence of other changes to the existing zero-sum dkp gain/bid philosophy...in fact, it may make things worse. The assumption in wanting the baseline to be 0 instead of negative is that everyone else is always 9 zillion dkp above you, but that's rarely the case and people go from "near top" down to the basement rather quickly (I'm living proof: from #2 to the basement in one week). Sure, setting a hard floor of 0 means you can climb back up a bit more quickly, but when new content comes around, you'll end up having nearly the entire raid sitting at or near 0 for awhile as upgrades start dropping....and as the progression through said content matures, you'll see the same type of distribution we see now. Also, what happens when you're at 0 and nobody else above you wants said loot? You'd either have to get it at no cost (bad system), you go negative (against the philosophy), or...the item gets disenchanted. I posted a few ideas before, most of which lend themselves well to "floor=0" type systems (percentage bid, dkp bid, percentage cost, etc.), so I won't go over those again, but flat item costs don't work well if you can't go negative...at least not without "special cases" (which invalidates the system's philosophy).

As for loot council...

It's not my favourite system in the world, but I'm frankly unable to think of anything that would work better for ensuring the raid is upgraded as evenly as possible. Whether or not it's the right system for this raid, I'm not sure, but I've seen items go to people for whom they were minor upgrades over those who were still sporting a 200/213 item so far, and I've seen best in slots go to brand new folks. Both situations can be fine, but that's not often the case. There are problems with the system, but nothing that can't be overcome. I won't get into specifics here, but as long as it's fair and transparent, a loot council can work out better for the raid's overall improvement.

Additionally, offspecs don't count in most dkp systems for a reason. The option to buy an offspec item (for gold or dkp) can and will hurt the raid, period (especially when it comes to the more contested "dps role" items; tanks/healers shift roles to dps more than the other way around, for the benefit of the raid). My opinion on offspec gear distribution system? Put it on the players to not roll on gear they'll never use in the raid unless absolutely nobody in the raid that will use it for that raid rolls. If it's tanking plate, for instance, there's no reason why Ascoli should have to roll against Kadi for the same piece, considering that he does tank in the raid (just hypothetical, but it illustrates the point well enough). Same goes for dps or healing gear. In short, don't be a *insert expletive here* when rolling on offspec gear should a dkp system remain.

[Calendar]

Hey Waldy,

Just wanted to say, I didn't forget your previous DKP post. I do reference it and will take it into consideration.

For those who are interested in Waldy's old post you can read it here:

http://www.thehonorempire.org/forums/index...ost&p=67245

Just a few points I wanted to clarify:

- Any changes to the DKP system will take effect only AFTER Icecrown Citadel is out

- Current system will remain in place until then

- The options I listed are the ones that are convenient for me to implement, I do not endorse or condone any one option

- I will wait until I get input from the raid before I give my own

[Tizaria]

Greetings all,

I wanted to apologize to everyone for my sudden departure from the raid last night. I got an emergency call from my mother in law and I needed to leave right away. She's fine and everything has been taken care of.

Thank You to everyone that sent me whispers worried about me.

Many of you know my life right now is getting fairly complicated. Without going into details, my mother is in the hospital and has been for months. Her health is declining. I will do my very best to make sure that I don't need to leave raid nights early again, but I must put priority right now on real life. All I can do right now is apologize and say I'll keep doing the best that I can. I will also make sure that the raid calendar is updated as soon as possible if I am unable to play. Thanks for your patience.

Tiz

[Martok]

Hey folks. So like, I'm back. I declined for tonights raid as my return was short notice. I will be back starting the Tue after Thanksgiving. Other than a week of meetings in December and Christmas I'll be back full time.

Thanks

[Maalick]

Welcome back.

[Corellon]

Today's not Tuesday is it?. . . . aw crud . . . so sorry people, just figured out I missed last nights raid due to my lack of paying attention to the days and having too much work to do in RL.

[Calendar]

Hi everyone,

Well it looks like the 3.3 patch may be coming out in the next couple of weeks. So I think it's important that I outline what my intentions are following the release of this patch. As always, I'm open to suggestions, please free to express them NOW (as opposed to AFTER 3.3 comes out and changes are made).

Raid Schedule

Given the current farm status of ToC (I know that statement is somewhat subjective), I'm aiming to reduce our raiding schedule to exclusively hit Icecrown Citadel (ICC). Note that ICC will NOT be fully available upon release.

The schedule will work based on instance priority. These priorities should align with our objectives (I hope). The following is the order in which we will tackle the instances:

1) ICC (until we hit the last boss that is available)

2) Onyxia

3) ToC

4) Raid Daily

5) VoA

6) Ulduar (Hard Modes)

DKP

Alright, I didn't get the level of response I was hoping when I first started talking about this. So here is where I stand:

Pros of our current system:

- Easy to understand

- Easy to use

- Decent amount of loot distribution

Cons of our current system:

- Puts folks who have bad gear at a disadvantage (DKP holes)

- Is prone to abuse (DKP hoarding)

- Favors new recruits with 0 DKP

- Stagnates as folks gear up

- Does not penalize people who miss raids

- Does not reward effort

Ideal System:

- Gives DKP best on effort and time put in

- Encourages people to participate

- Excellent loot distribution

- Makes it impractical to hoard or splurge on DKP

So here is what I've come up with:

- Minimum DKP: 0

- Maximum DKP: 250

- DKP per hour: 10

- DKP per boss: 5

- DKP decay per day: (-15)

- DKP Prices:

- 25% for all items ***UPDATED!!!***

- Same penalties apply:

- (-5) DKP for any missing food or flask buff

- (-20) DKP for being late

- (-40) DKP for not showing up

- Since the above system does not work with negative DKP, if you find yourself beneath 0, you will be prohibited to bid on any items until you get back into positive values. (Exemption: If the item is about to get DE'd or given to a replacement).

So I think by going with Waldy's % based item costs it makes the whole process a little less linear. There is a direct and significant impact on people's DKP standing regardless of if they have hoarded their points for weeks or find themselves constantly at 0.

Yes this means that all items have a variable cost; an item you paid 50 DKP for might be sold at 20 DKP to another person. There is an invisible cost associated with obtaining an item first or for waiting too long before bidding for something (this is the only way to mitigate hoarding).

DKP Reset

***UPDATED!!!***

Based on recent discussions, observed behaviors and the unknowns of the new system I'm instead opting for a full reset (everyone starts at 0). First drops will be determined via rolls.

Gear Requirements

I'm increasing the minimum gear requirement to now include epic gems. Once patch 3.3 comes out all raiders are required to appropriately enchant all their gear and gem them with EPIC quality gems. There are no exceptions.

Penalty for not meeting this requirement is (-10) DKP per raid night.

A full gear audit will occur shortly after 3.3 comes out.

Well I guess that's about it, any questions?

Regards,

Zu

Edited December 2, 2009 by Calendar

[Orcala]

Sorry I won't be able to make it today guys, my schools ending and got a huge project suckinh up my time. Same goes for work where i'm working overtime all week. Don't miss me too much haha

[Kalea]

Sounds good to me, Zu, although dkp and loot is secondary to me when raiding. You'll just have to tell me if I bid on something when my dkp is 0.

I assume that the raid priorities are based on where the best loot falls. It's a shame that raids have lost the idea of the thrill of doing something for the challenge of it, like Ulduar hard modes, instead of not wanting to tackle anything that doesn't have better loot for them.

[Calendar]

Sounds good to me, Zu, although dkp and loot is secondary to me when raiding. You'll just have to tell me if I bid on something when my dkp is 0.

I assume that the raid priorities are based on where the best loot falls. It's a shame that raids have lost the idea of the thrill of doing something for the challenge of it, like Ulduar hard modes, instead of not wanting to tackle anything that doesn't have better loot for them.

You can still bid with 0 DKP Kalea. 10%, 20% or 30% of 0 is still 0

I don't think our raid is too loot-centric, if that were the case everyone would've dropped the second we started Ulduar Hard Modes. My expectation is that folks "know" what they need/want and DKP is simply a system that juggles and balances out the loot accordingly. DKP is not something people should think about or strategize with, it's just something "in background" used by the raid leader to handle loot.

[Tepheris]

You know Zu, You are the raid leader, and how ever you see fit to set the DKP. Up to you. I will conform to how you see fit to lead the raid. That being said, when you checked our toons a few months back how come the issue with Zenita using a BLUE trinket was not called out? Further more, why was he allowed to carry it for 2 1/2 tier levels?? Christ the badge one for himw would have been better off no?? Further more, you wait to bid on a upgrade trophy before the trinket? You Zenita, my friend are a prime example of a DKP horder, and one of the reasons this raid has not succeded further! You know there was disscussion about what you pulled because Zu took considerable time to give it to you! Don't give me any grief about how you can't get more badges, Anyone whos a decent player has oppurtunitys to get into 10 mans. I'm sorry Zu, I'm pretty hot about this. I bit my tounge during the raid, but I need to say this. If this bull###### EVER happens again, I seriously am done with this raid. Nothing personal. Hell you all gave me grief about a wrong enchat on my boots, and 1 stam gem, but you'll let someone walk around for 2 1/2 tiers of content, with a blue trinkent? I'm sorry Zenita, but you are #1 on my ###### list... That is all

Jestin