Zuworty's Raid Information

[Calendar]

I need to make Bracers of Swift Death which cost 4 crusader orbs. Is there a way to get on the list for them?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47581

Thanks!

OMFG Orcala!

A) You already rolled for your Crusader Orbs

B) If you've rolled for them, then I assumed you knew what you were rolling for

C) If you had gotten Orbs by this point would they currently be sitting in your bank gathering dust?!

D) You only get 2 Orbs, you have to buy the other 2 or wait till your turn comes again

E) All reagent / roster info is on the google spreadhseet link (see first post)

F) You're in 2nd last place to get 2 Orbs

[Kailand]

I need to make Bracers of Swift Death which cost 4 crusader orbs. Is there a way to get on the list for them?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47581

Thanks!

OMFG Orcala!

A) You already rolled for your Crusader Orbs

B) If you've rolled for them, then I assumed you knew what you were rolling for

C) If you had gotten Orbs by this point would they currently be sitting in your bank gathering dust?!

D) You only get 2 Orbs, you have to buy the other 2 or wait till your turn comes again

E) All reagent / roster info is on the google spreadhseet link (see first post)

F) You're in 2nd last place to get 2 Orbs

G) LOL

[Karrock]

H) Not surprising in the least

Edit: Oh yeah-Orcala you can make the chest piece I am looking for, so if I give you a bunch of mats this week, they will not be donations to make your own item...

K

Edited October 6, 2009 by Karrock

[Orcala]

H) Not surprising in the least

Edit: Oh yeah-Orcala you can make the chest piece I am looking for, so if I give you a bunch of mats this week, they will not be donations to make your own item...

K

Double Dammit!

[Qiris]

Sorry for the late notice but something's come up tonight and I will miss the raid.

Good luck!

Xiris

[Holyssa]

First off: very good job on finally sending Anub'arak (25) to spider heaven! Spider pride >8<

Second: I'm posting links to Yogg strats again. This is merely for our replacements/new faces, because as Uggy stated: this is a B*TCH to explain verbally without eating precious raid time.

The above is Zu's portal assignment pic. The old post has the names of folks that are no longer with us (*COUGH*Heiliger*COUGH), so I rescued it from the old thread for him to list assignments again.

Bosskillers:

http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild...mp;guide_id=688

TankSpot:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f206/49663-...yogg-saron.html

^ Will need a decent connection for this one. LOTS of movies, and notes from StratFu.

Wowwiki:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Yogg-Saron_(tactics)

Guess what? More movies (scroll way down). Also lists the history of nerfs/buffs/changes the multi-mouthed one underwent over time.

Wowhead Entry:

http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=33288

More or less a condensed version of the Wowwiki link. Comments are useless, unless you wanna read some decent lore/non-tactical theorycrafting.

^ You laugh, you lose. Real life Yogg-Saron footage!

[Karrock]

And when in the brain room, everyone starts at the same point. The folks on the left (portals 2-4 or 5) go to the left to kill adds inside the room and the folks on the right (5 or 6-9) go to the right to kill adds inside the room.

I am not sure what Markenfailure (10) does inside the room, but I am almost certain it doesn't have anything to do with healing anyone....

It has been a while since we've been to yogg, so it was good to get the bad out on day 1.

I would be very surprised if we didn't down him on Thrusday.

K

[Kalea]

My two cents:

It seems things got out of hand last night. Let's please keep the criticism/hate to a minimum. If a player needs to be called out, let Zuworty or their leads do it. Let's not see it in raid chat or hear it in teamspeak from random raid members.

It seems to me that we can't be too hard on the dps right now. As long as we're trying to gear replacements, the regulars aren't gearing up at the pace they should be. It's kind of a Catch 22 while we're gearing placements. We're going to have to be patient while we get everyone up to speed.

Also, a lot of the new people don't know the encounters the way the regulars do. That, too, slows things down while everyone gets to the same place on the learning curve.

We do need to have a talk with some of the new people. I see a lot of total selfishness when it comes to grabbing every shiny in sight. It makes me a sad panda. The tone of the raid has changed in a bad way.

[Orcala]

My two cents:

It seems things got out of hand last night. Let's please keep the criticism/hate to a minimum. If a player needs to be called out, let Zuworty or their leads do it. Let's not see it in raid chat or hear it in teamspeak from random raid members.

But Kalea you told me to jump in the lava last night!

[Waldonnis]

I agree with Kalea on several points. Things were out of control in the last hour on Tuesday, which just made the last attempts even more chaotic and painful than they needed to be. For those who haven't been a raid lead, getting 24 other people (or for some of us, 39 other people in the past) can be more problematic than one would expect. Things go wrong, misunderstandings happen, and sometimes people "tune out" during any explanations. In this case, we had a tank that was learning the fight, and several who had never seen it before, so mistakes were bound to happen.

This is part of the learning process and, as distasteful or frustrating as wiping can be for some, it's a fact of raiding...and one that people need to get used to again. I've seen more QQ after a couple of wipes or folks asking to do something else/quit early after sometimes as little as two wipes. Two attempts does not mean we've learned anything, nor does it necessarily mean we have the tactics down. Most people learn through repetition most easily, so it can often take a number of tries to get things right (even moreso if they're in an unfamiliar role). In short, wipes happen, so suck it up and keep trying.

I also see a TON of "finger pointing" going on after a failed attempt on anything, and lots of smack talk both within the raid and outside of it. I've made my share of mistakes in the raid and I know for a fact that everyone else has too, whether they want to admit it or not. Again, mistakes happen, so be an adult about it instead of donning the Teflon bodysuit and blaming others first. Like it or not, the raid's failure to down a boss is ALL of our faults, since it takes the raid's efforts to succeed. You can jibe each other about screw-ups here and there (hell, I popped Vampiric Blood accidentally during P3 of Anub...and felt like a moron), but talking smack about how "dps fails" or the like as if any of us are saints is undermining progress period. The sooner people get it through their skulls that the raid succeeds when the raid works together (rather than tearing at each other), the better we'd be. There are fights where healing matters most, there are fights were dps matters most, there are fights where tank swaps matter most, and there are fights where it's all about coordination and teamwork. It's never as black-and-white as people have been making it out to be, and it's rare that all of the above matter in a given fight (healing-check bosses are rarely dps, tank, and coordination checks as well: Vashj and Archimonde were NOT dps, tank, or healing checks, for example).

We do need to have a talk with some of the new people. I see a lot of total selfishness when it comes to grabbing every shiny in sight. It makes me a sad panda. The tone of the raid has changed in a bad way.

Kalea has a point here, and one that I've been thinking about recently. While I'm relatively unaffected (not many tanks, so there's not much competition for gear), damage-dealers are often jockeying for the same gear drops, and some slots are harder to fill than others for certain classes. I see a lot of "me" thinking and not a lot of "us" thinking in how people are working out their looting strategies...and definitely not a lot of forethought from some of the newer people. While I understand that they often have the most gear to replace to get "up to snuff", we also need to be considerate of those people who have stuck with the raid for a longer time and may be in the hole dkp-wise from getting Ulduar (or even Naxx) gear that is now potentially being replaced. Unfortunately, the downside to zero-sum is that newer folks can walk in and, given our presence in T9 content, practically walk away with best-in-slot items on their first couple nights. I've rarely been an advocate of preferential loot systems, but this seems to be a flaw that's hurting the raid to a certain extent. We may be upping the output of a new person, but our longer-time folks don't improve at all until they have sufficient dkp to overtake a newer person AND an appropriate drop happens...which then often sinks them below the new person again immediately. Personally, I would rather not see a best-in-slot item go to someone we're "trying out" as a replacement right away, unless of course the longer-time folks have the item in question already, but that's a policy decision that I can't make.

While I doubt we'll see a change in how the system works, I can ask that the newer people at least have some consideration instead of blindly going for every shiny purple they see. The same goes for the regulars as well: if it's minor for you, but big for a new person, it won't kill you to pass (best-in-slots, of course, are special exceptions). Fact is, loot is a means to an end, not the sole purpose of raiding. We get more powerful items to kill more powerful bosses, which give us even more powerful items when they die. It doesn't matter if you're personally equipping 100% best you can get gear, if the raid is lagging behind you, downing bosses is still going to be problematic. It's a tough balance, since you want to keep your top people doing well, but also want to shore up those whose output is lower, but I would like to think that it's something that people in the raid are adult enough to work out amongst themselves. After all, the goal is to kill the next big bad boss, not "OMGMYSHOULDERS"...or at least it shouldn't be.

TLDR Ug version:

• You're not a special and unique snowflake, nor a divine gift to the raid - it's a team effort, so failure of the raid is your failure too
  
• Mistakes happen, as do wipes - suck it up (and accept that none of us are perfect)
  
• We don't need critiques after one attempt; it often takes several tries for people to learn a fight, especially in new roles
  
• Stop being greedy about loot and work together more
  

[Karrock]

I usually never speak up, but here is my input:

1) finger-pointing is good when you want to make fun of someone, but bad when you are blaming the failure of the raid on that person. I am always in favor of good-hearted ribbing, which I think our raid has the most of.

2) Loot: BiS gear for me comes from ToC, which we can clear, and I am sure this goes for most of us. You should have a list of BiS items and bid on those items (or items that are very close) only. "trying to make something work" is not the best strategy now-make a list and stick to it.

3) dps: please tell me the last time when hit an enrage timer....cause I can't remember that far back.

4) Strategy, living, and people knowing their jobs will win. gear will help us win faster, but focus on your job not someone else's.

5) god damn can a brother get a trophy!

K

[Calendar]

Wipes

Live with it. If you complain too much, don't expect to get invited often.

The scary thing I'm noticing is that the majority of these complaints come from our REGULAR folks!!!

It's not the new people whining, it's the veterans! I also see a lot of hypocrite folks preaching about how wipes are a part of raiding, but they are the first to blow up and have a ###### fit when we do wipe.

Take a long hard look at your own behaviors, try calming yourselves down when we are facing a particularly difficult boss (and yes these instructions also apply to myself).

(I know my statement makes it appear like I'm targeting the previous posters -- I'm not, I'm targeting the raid in general, just to be clear.)

Loot

When we switched to a rotational roster I wanted to address this, however I think everyone agreed that it might be too much change to deal with all at once. So we are stuck with the system we have today. Other than making announcements reminding folks to be considerate I don't see what else I can do. Normalize again?

My only suggestion here is to perhaps get raid leads involved. Resurrect the whole "give my your loot list" and perhaps have raid leads pseudo-manage loot distribution (kind of like loot-council even though I hate that term since it brings with it all kinds of preconceptions).

As caster DPS lead, this is the route I will take. I will start requesting folks for their lists soon. When raiders bid I will try to correlate the bidders with their list and if I can see a better distribution I will veto the bid (as diplomatically as possible).

Does that sound like a good plan?

Do other raid leads want to do the same?

(BTW: The reason why I stopped collecting raid-wide lists is because it quickly became overwhelming. I got flooded with massive amounts of items from difference sources and couldn't manage all the data in an efficient manner.)

Blame Vs. Poking Fun

And once again the thin line between being funny and being mean was crossed.

We have folks now who completely refuse to talk on TS (and I don't only mean Kadi) and we have folks who feel like complete ###### at the end of the night.

The people who are the most prone to this kind of verbal abuse are the ones who talk on TS the most often (and I admit I sometimes fall into that category).

If you find yourself being upset, overly excited or intoxicated, please refrain from talking on TS. And if you suffer from a disease that forces you to press that push-to-talk button please do not call out folks in the raid. We don't need blame and I'd rather raid in silence than leave the computer feeling like ######.

If I start asking folks reasons for wipes than that is my prerogative. It's up to the raid lead to make necessary adjustments to tactics and player assignments. In the case where weak players are identified it's up to me to deal with them (light the fire under their asses if need be). IT IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO (and I don't care if it's just for fun or if the person you're berating is your best friend).

This is something I've been meaning to change, but it's difficult and not an easy process. I will try to call out the folks that make TS unpleasant more often and hopefully try to calm down a situation before it gets out of hand.

TLDR

Wipes: Deal with it. Veteran players ######ing about it reek of burn out.

Loot: Pseudo-loot council? Are raid leads on board with this idea?

Blame, TS: If you're unpleasant STFU. Don't call out players (for ANY reason). You will be prompted if you're overly rowdy on TS.

[Ascoli]

Ok, I was looking at how we could improve in the brain room...

For the 3rd time, here are the portal entry points:

There are 3 different visions of Yogg-Saron's mind, two of them have a circular layout while the 3rd one is split into three groups.

For the circular layout I would suggest splitting up like this (the numbers are you portal assignments):

1 & 2 take the first tentacle on the left

3 & 4 skip the first tentacle on the left and head to the second

8 & 9 take the first tentacle on the right

6 & 7 skip the first tentacle on the right and head to the second

5 will go where he is needed (if someone can't get in or someone dies)

10 is the healer

Once your tentacle is down, skip one and go to the next:

For the layout with 3 groups:

1, 2, 3 go left

4, 5, 6 go straight

7, 8, 9 go right

[Calendar]

My intent was to make a post regarding the brain room. Obviously both Holy and Ascoli beat me to the punch.

So I'll just add to their post and copy-paste the assignments for tonight

LEFT SIDE

1 - Kailand

2 - Karrock

3 - Maalick

MIDDLE

4 - Foroshell

5 - Genraku

6 - Ascoli

RIGHT SIDE

7 - Elrikk

8 - Sneekeh

9 - Orcala

HEALER

10 - Markenhoof

Ascoli provided a really detailed layout of how DPS should be done within each room. I don't know that we are capable of managing such coordinated DPS. I know that sounds really bad, but can anyone give me decent assurance that it won't take Orcala 20 attempts before she figures out which tactic she's got to use in the room she ports into?

So my tactic for now is: Keep it simple...

1, 2, 3 go left

4, 5, 6 go right

7, 8, 9 go middle

Markenhoof go center and heal

[Martok]

[Karrock]

Very good attempts last night. It won't take much for us to get over the hump.

I think the healers, tanks, and positioning were fine. By slowly adding dps to the boss in P3, I think we can get the balance. 1 more should do it, as long as everyone stays alive.

At this point, I think the practice time is over and all we have to do is execute. If things do not go well in P1/2 (e.g. not getting through P2 in 3 brain rooms, 2 or more people dying) it may be more beneficial to wipe early and save some time.

Extending the lockout: double edge sword really. if it is extended, we wont 1) get keyed for algalon or 2) gear up new folks...but we will most likely kill yogg. I would probably vote to extend it to get a yogg kill under our belts, then go back to the 1 extension max.

K

[Martok]

I have received the healer loot wish lists from: Kadiana, Tizaria, Markenhoof, and Kalea. I have incorporated this into the MAIN post above with a link to current spreadsheet.

[Kailand]

Hi,

For the physical DPS, I'd like them to send me thier lists via PM. I'd like them to include their 'desired items', as well as thier second choice items for both ToC (normal only as we are still far away from attempting heroic)/Onyxia/Ulduar. I would also like the physical DPS to join a chat channel so that we can discuss stuff among each other, so lets make the channel SDPDPS (short for speckle dust physical DPS).

Kailand

Edited October 9, 2009 by Kailand

[Calendar]

Wow I'm impressed Ugz! Your healer crew is on the ball. I got a total of 0 lists :S

So here's a reminder of what I want:

- ALL dropped loot that is part of an upgrade path for you

- I want normal modes, hard modes and heroic

- Only write down 25man raid instance items

- If you don't do 10man stuff don't plan on getting 10man items (d'uh)

- Identify what is Best-in-Slot (BiS) and what isn't

We have a lot of "newer" folks, meaning this a much bigger job for you guys. I expect there to be plenty of loot left in Udluar for you guys. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE TOC LOOT EXCLUSIVELY. Be honest on what you can use.

I will also be setting up a caster channel: CScasters please join it!

[Kalea]

Hi,

For the physical DPS, I'd like them to send me thier lists via PM. I'd like them to include their 'desired items', as well as thier second choice items for both ToC (normal only as we are still far away from attempting heroic)/Onyxia/Ulduar. I would also like the physical DPS to join a chat channel so that we can discuss stuff among each other, so lets make the channel SDPDPS (short for speckle dust physical DPS).

Kailand

Uglutz limited his healers to only listing 5 items. I know there are other things I would bid on in time, but we had to bow to the Will of Uglutz.

Linked where, Ug?

Edited October 9, 2009 by Kalea

[Martok]

Lets keep it real. Everyone's top items are still in ToC. Will we SETTLE for something from Ulduar heroic? Sure. But if we are going to try heroic why not do ToC heroic?

Anyhow, by the time we get to that point Icecrown citadel will be out so the overall point of making a comprehensive list of lust is moot.

[Calendar]

The task really isn't such a tall order.

Most of the veterans will require only items from ToC with a few trinkets and whatnot from hard modes in Ulduar.

The newer folks have a bigger job ahead of them (they are the ones I'd like to see putting in major effort into this).

The idea here is two fold:

A) Get people researching their gear and class mechanics

B) Determining where the upgrades are for the new folk so as to avoid anymore of these "ninja" scenarios.

95% of the time I assume that the list someone gives me for ToC-normal will be the same for ToC-heroic (same items, different iLvl).

Ulduar is different in the sent that the hard modes yield different loot.

People have a rough idea of what they want/need, if a veteran player only browses the gear in Ulduar and tells me he's done, who am I to question?

In terms of heroics...Ulduar Hard Modes are coming right after Yogg-Saron. Heroic ToC we're no where close to that!

[Martok]

The healer loot list is in the first post of this forum where it says "Healing Lead". click on that.

Unfortunately, its a public Googledoc spreadsheet but they Google has it now so you actually must have a gmail account to view it. So anyhow, sign up for a gmail account so you can see that stuff

[Calendar]

Everyone ready to kick Anub'arak in the face tonight?!

We're following the same deal as last Monday:

VoA (if it's up)

Onyxia

ToC

Also, I found this little gem the other night and it immediately reminded me of Kalea and Uglutz

[Baracko]

Cal likes pink... could this be him? If so, Rahgesh got more than his moneys worth! ;p