Zuworty's Raid Information

[Karrock]

I haven't logged on in a bit so i will try to catch up....

Zu, this dkp sounds good. One suggestion, we need to make all general loot (e.g. trinks, necks, rings, backs) the highest tier of dkp cost. Unfortunately, blizz made these bis items the same/similar for the 3 classes of folks (phys dps, caster dps, healers) so I see these items being more valuable then less.

Teph, being the exact opposite of a dkp hoarder, I feel your pain. The good thing is, I do not think this has happened a great deal for the majority of us in the raid...but other people have/are doing it now. I also found it funny that upgrades on "old" content (e.g. sarth) are handed out for free...and in the same breath normal ulduar is not considered old content yet (since the last time we ran it we de'd 95% of the stuff).

Kalea, "dkp and loot is secondary to me when raiding" coming from someone that rolls on everything, including stuff you can't use, is hilarious. I laughed quite a bit.

Can we stop doing sarth? this OS run is bs and a waste of time-if you want the mount-form a group on your own time and go get it.

Orcala is fail.

Edit: Uglutz is fail-leave the hookers alone man! Or at least make them wait!

K

Edited December 2, 2009 by Karrock

[Calendar]

Further more, why was he allowed to carry it for 2 1/2 tier levels?

I admit I haven't been as diligent as Kailand when it comes to verifying the loot being carried by my caster DPS. The reality is that I work 60+ hours a week, I'm more than willing to put in as much time as necessary to administer the raid, but keeping track everyone's gear, their upgrades and their DKP all at once is a commitment FAR beyond what I can invest in.

Are there hoarders in the raid? Yes.

Did Zeniita abuse the DKP system to get an advantage on loot? Probably but it's hard for me to prove.

Do others do the same? I'm convinced of it.

Am I willing to police everyone all the time? No.

Zu, this dkp sounds good. One suggestion, we need to make all general loot (e.g. trinks, necks, rings, backs) the highest tier of dkp cost. Unfortunately, blizz made these bis items the same/similar for the 3 classes of folks (phys dps, caster dps, healers) so I see these items being more valuable then less.

Sounds like a reasonable argument. I'll take it into consideration.

Can we stop doing sarth? this OS run is bs and a waste of time-if you want the mount-form a group on your own time and go get it.

I'll admit it is a bit of a time-waster. The reality is that nights where we don't have a full set of key players (tanks & healers) we run out of instances before we run out of time. So we try to fill-in with other activities (Sarth 3D, Ulduar achievements, etc.). If we have the necessary complement of raiders Sarth does not factor in. I'm also unwilling to "call it" just because folks don't feel like raiding in instance where there is no loot for them.

DKP Imbalance

Yes this is an issue! What do you want me to do about it?

How can I possibly control this? I can try to be more watchful, but what more can I do?!

[Karrock]

Zu, you do a great job as raid lead, I don't think anyone will question that. You put more time and effort than anyone else in the raid so for people to go beyond making suggestions and to be upset with the way things go is ridiculous. You have to have the attitude of "i have considered all the options and this is how things go" and say f everyone who doesn't like it...because more time than not, you make the vast majority of the ppl in the raid happy.

DKP imbalance:

It is easy to spot dkp hoarders...they are usually on top of the dkp list. by looking at the current list, i would only feel compelled to look at Marken through Zeniita for possible hoarders...and half of those folks you can dismiss for general transparent knowledge and lack of recent raiding. Once on top of things, doing it on a weekly basis is much easier, and can be broken up amongst the leads (which all in all would probably lead to 1 or 2 people per lead to check up on max). Like anything (e.g. flasks) if people are taken to task long enough it becomes the rule and checking up would no longer be needed.

Remember, weapon dkp hits very hard-for those hanging around the top that do not have a weapon upgrade yet will get a quick -300 dkp when they get it...I got back to back drops and was -600 dkp quick for a gun and 2H...

Another thing to consider is to have a max dkp limit (say 400). Gaining dkp over 400 would be useless, so ppl would almost be forced to take loot when they get there-plus there may be multiple ppl at the max, in which a roll-off would occur more often, or the choice of most needy could get it.

edit: i ramble and my typing is for ######

K

Edited December 2, 2009 by Karrock

[Tepheris]

Zu, bud in no way am I blaming you, or saying you should police us. You do more then enough as raid leader and you've got us through some time ######. You've done your part brother. It just goes back to the old addage, EVERYONE else must do theres for us to succede.....

Jestin

[Kalea]

DKP Imbalance

Yes this is an issue! What do you want me to do about it?

How can I possibly control this? I can try to be more watchful, but what more can I do?!

Degrading dkp will take care of this?

[Calendar]

Thanks for the kind words guys. I will be a bit more diligent in policing DKP, but if any of you notice anything off please let me know as well!

I guess it does boil down to DKP system and simply trying to be more aware of things.

I did a few adjustments to the DKP plan (please see above).

[Karrock]

With the decaying dkp thing and the % of the item as the cost, we may want to start everyone at 100 or maybe the max 250...

K

[Kadi]

I agree with Zuworty's plan so far, with the exception of setting everyone to zero. Even though the Zero setting is probably a benefit to me (plenty of DKP hoarders above me who want some of the same weapons/necks/rings/etc that I do), but I worry that it may drive some people to take EVERYTHING from here on out, even if it's a sidegrade or a 'like' gear offspec (elemental vs. resto shaman for example) just to spend their DKP, possibly depriving someone out of an actual upgrade. That's one of the reasons why I'm in favor of normalization, even if the range between the top and bottom person is very narrow. If there is a contingency plan to prevent crap like this, then I'm fine with the 'start from scratch' thing.

Put it on the players to not roll on gear they'll never use in the raid unless absolutely nobody in the raid that will use it for that raid rolls. If it's tanking plate, for instance, there's no reason why Ascoli should have to roll against Kadi for the same piece, considering that he does tank in the raid (just hypothetical, but it illustrates the point well enough). Same goes for dps or healing gear. In short, don't be a *insert expletive here* when rolling on offspec gear should a dkp system remain.

I agree with Waldy on this, though I want to add that I have gladly passed to people like Ascoli and Waldy (who DPS and Tank both in raids) on ret gear, not rolling if I see them do so first, or passing the item on to them if I roll before them and win the roll. I think this has been the attitude of most people in our raid, and I would hope that anyone would pass in that situation.

I would hope that the "Don't be a dick" rule would apply for DKP and Offpec both, though. We all have the same basic goal to kill stuff and have fun here, right?

Sorry if I rambled. Been a long day.

-Kadi

[Waldonnis]

One of the faults of any "points system" is that people will hoard points for various reasons. Some want the best shot at the best items when they first drop, others just don't see a beneficial drop for a bit so it accrues without being spent, and yes, there are even some people that just like seeing their names at the top of a list or a big number (welcome to human psychology). NO AMOUNT OF POLICING WILL FIX THIS. Unless you force everyone to spend their DKP on items, any policing will be lopsided and prone to problems....and if you went that far, why use points at all...just hand the loot out for free?

DKP is there for a reason. Loot systems solve many problems and no system is perfect, and yet the benefits still outweigh the negatives OR ELSE NOBODY WOULD USE IT. If you dislike that someone else got a nice item over you because they "hoarded DKP" or whatever reason, well I'm sorry, but my sympathy is about all there is to give. If you use a system, you can't just ignore it because it worked against you that time. Think of how many items you HAVE gotten before complaining about that one item that you didn't get. In the end, it's the system that we're given to work with and it's the system that determines who gets what. End. Of. Discussion.

Yes, there are always going to be ways to manipulate the system to your advantage (hoarding being the obvious one), but folks sitting around near-full BiS complaining about one item is ridiculous. You've picked up a crapload of stuff, so relax and be happy that someone else who was lacking got to get something too that will only strengthen the entire raid. In short, IT'S NOT, NOR SHOULD IT BE, ABOUT ONLY YOU FFS. I look around and see a severely lopsided tier distribution right now in this raid and can't help but think "is this helping or hurting the raid?". Put ego and greed aside and try answering that question when you're bidding on that fifth trophy against someone who might have two tier pieces...let me know what you come up with. Not all of us run 10-mans too, so our emblem acquisition rate is VASTLY below yours....bear that in mind when you're complaining while sitting around in more gear than someone like me could even remotely afford even before the trophy.

I look around this thread and see more whining and focus on loot or DKP than on the encounters. Seriously, go back and count the posts about loot vs. difficult bosses or hard modes. No excitement about the bosses and mechanics we'll face in Icecrown Citadel, no talk about strategy (other than from maybe 2-3 people here and there, and always the same people), no interest in killing stuff just to kill it. If there is no reward, NOBODY CARES (even if there's a challenge to be overcome). People show up, but looking at the performance arc, it becomes very apparent that the interest just isn't there when there's nothing tangible to be gained. Whether many people in this raid want to accept it or not, behaviour speaks very loudly here...loot has become the most important thing, even above relations with other raid members or besting a challenge together. It's disappointing, but that's just a fact at this point. It's sad that it's come to this...seriously.

/endrant

Edited December 3, 2009 by Waldonnis

[Orcala]

Orcala is fail.

It's Funny Jestin's post made me think of douches which made me think of you and look who posted!

I'm fine with whatever comes in the end, Zu. (I mean DKP fools!)

[Calendar]

I look around this thread and see more whining and focus on loot or DKP than on the encounters. Seriously, go back and count the posts about loot vs. difficult bosses or hard modes. No excitement about the bosses and mechanics we'll face in Icecrown Citadel, no talk about strategy (other than from maybe 2-3 people here and there, and always the same people), no interest in killing stuff just to kill it. If there is no reward, NOBODY CARES (even if there's a challenge to be overcome). People show up, but looking at the performance arc, it becomes very apparent that the interest just isn't there when there's nothing tangible to be gained. Whether many people in this raid want to accept it or not, behaviour speaks very loudly here...loot has become the most important thing, even above relations with other raid members or besting a challenge together. It's disappointing, but that's just a fact at this point. It's sad that it's come to this...seriously.

I LOL'd at this...it's so true! There hasn't been a single post about any of the ICC encounters. I'm totally expecting that when we reach that first boss in ICC, everyone's just going to turn their heads and wait till I spew out explanations, positions and tactics.

So in preparation here some reading material for you folks:

Blizzard will be releasing ICC as 4 distinct regions:

Lower Spire

Plagueworks

Crimson Hall

Frostwing Hall

The release will occur much like ToC, in that each section will be timed a few weeks apart.

The first section, Lower Spire, has 4 bosses:

Lord Marrowgar

Lady Deathwhisper

Gunship Battle

Deathbringer Saurfang

Please go read up on these encounters and look at the tutorial videos, I'm sure they will be instrumental in our success. We'll tackle bosses for the other sections as we move forward.

Zu

[Waldonnis]

In before noticing that 19 people don't know any of the encounters, but know every loot drop in the instance...

/sadness

/anger

[Kadi]

I look around this thread and see more whining and focus on loot or DKP than on the encounters. Seriously, go back and count the posts about loot vs. difficult bosses or hard modes. No excitement about the bosses and mechanics we'll face in Icecrown Citadel, no talk about strategy (other than from maybe 2-3 people here and there, and always the same people), no interest in killing stuff just to kill it. If there is no reward, NOBODY CARES (even if there's a challenge to be overcome). People show up, but looking at the performance arc, it becomes very apparent that the interest just isn't there when there's nothing tangible to be gained. Whether many people in this raid want to accept it or not, behaviour speaks very loudly here...loot has become the most important thing, even above relations with other raid members or besting a challenge together. It's disappointing, but that's just a fact at this point. It's sad that it's come to this...seriously.

I LOL'd at this...it's so true! There hasn't been a single post about any of the ICC encounters. I'm totally expecting that when we reach that first boss in ICC, everyone's just going to turn their heads and wait till I spew out explanations, positions and tactics.

I only posted here about loot because Zu wanted feedback. I also try to read up on fights closer to the time that we are going in for the first time, although I do so only enough to get the basics of what's going on. I like new content to feel new, not like I know it all already the first time I walk in. Maybe that's just me.

[Kailand]

I only posted here about loot because Zu wanted feedback. I also try to read up on fights closer to the time that we are going in for the first time, although I do so only enough to get the basics of what's going on. I like new content to feel new, not like I know it all already the first time I walk in. Maybe that's just me.

Same here, I like going into new encounters the first time without really knowing what's going to happen (I find it more fun that way personally). About all I may look at is boss abilities. Now after that first attempt or two, then I'll read up on the various strategies. BTW, congrats on the hard mode council kill last night, I wish my connection was stable enough for me to be there and be a contributing member of that kill (WTB fixed internet connection and competent tech people).

And as for loot, I'm with waldy, who cares, I'm more interested in experiencing content, and all loot is to me is a way to make that content easier to progress through. After all the ######ing about zeniita, I looked at his gear, and it's better than alot of people in the raid... I don't see the reason why people are ######ing about him hoarding: sometimes loot that is an upgrade just doesn't drop for a while *cough, weapons, cough, Kadiana's T6 Helm, cough*. That's also the drawback with a % based cost, if upgrades don't drop for a particular class/spec, then they end up getting screwed on DKP, but overall everybody will get their upgrades eventually (assuming they drop). My opinion on the requirements for a loot system is: does everybody have a chance to get upgrades at about equal rates, and is it simple to understand. Our current loot system, and the new % based system both meet those criteria.

[Orcala]

After all the ######ing about zeniita, I looked at his gear, and it's better than alot of people in the raid... I don't see the reason why people are ######ing about him hoarding: sometimes loot that is an upgrade just doesn't drop for a while *cough, weapons, cough, Kadiana's

I agree about Zenita he's done really well on the damage meters despite his "######ty gear". Want me to post it next raid??

[Karrock]

After all the ######ing about zeniita, I looked at his gear, and it's better than alot of people in the raid... I don't see the reason why people are ######ing about him hoarding: sometimes loot that is an upgrade just doesn't drop for a while *cough, weapons, cough, Kadiana's

I agree about Zenita he's done really well on the damage meters despite his "######ty gear". Want me to post it next raid??

Instead of worrying about posting dps meters, worry about not sucking.

K

[Martok]

Edit: Uglutz is fail-leave the hookers alone man! Or at least make them wait!

K

I would rather be raiding then traveling with a new trainee and doing meetings. This guy is way annoying. He smells like cheese, talks too much, and oddly has some strange sense of humor like Orcala.

[Ascoli]

For those like me who like useless numbers, according to GuildOx we're the 4th raiding guild on the server to complete the Steelbreaker last 25-man achievement. Seems most of the other guilds opted for the (easier?) Runemaster Molgeim last.

[Calendar]

Hehe, that website is actually pretty nifty. Not something that folks should take too seriously mind you. It's one of the better indicators of progress relative to other guilds.

I also wanted to make a response in regards to the "first encounters" within ICC...

I understand that some folks want to experience the novelty of going into ICC without prior knowledge of the fights. I also understand that there is a good portion of raiders that couldn't care less about "novelty". So I think a compromise needs to be reached...

Here is what I'm proposing...

*I* don't feel that it would be particularly interesting, practical or even gain us anything if just blindly threw ourselves at a boss. It'd be like throwing rocks at a tank in the hopes of slowing it down. Instead of doing my normal fight explanation, I will abstain from describing any of the bosses abilities. I will however give some instructions to enable folks to at least venture into battle knowing more or less what is they should be doing (i.e. clumping up, spreading out, tanking, imitating a monkey, flinging feces at Kadiana, etc.)

I don't mind learning the fights beforehand to do this. For our *FIRST* night in ICC I also won't complain (too much) if folks haven't done their due diligence on the battles. However, this leniency will only be given for the *FIRST* night. After that I expect everyone to do their homework!

Zu

[Calendar]

Hi Everyone,

The 3.3 patch is in!

All DKP has been reset (i.e. erased) and the new rules take effect starting today.

I'll be doing the gear audit later this week so please be pro-active and start switching those rare gems to epic gems if you have any.

I'd also appreciate if folks could start looking at ICC loot to try and determine what pieces they'd like.

[Karrock]

Can we assume that there will be no raid tonight due to the regular server crap? Would we try to start in ICC?

K

[Calendar]

Can we assume that there will be no raid tonight due to the regular server crap? Would we try to start in ICC?

K

I *HATE* when people immediately assume that we aren't raiding due to server issues.

We will attempt to start in ICC, if we encounter issues then we'll try ToC. If problems persist then we'll call it. I'm not going to throw in the towel before we even try!

[Kalea]

Hi Everyone,

The 3.3 patch is in!

All DKP has been reset (i.e. erased) and the new rules take effect starting today.

I'll be doing the gear audit later this week so please be pro-active and start switching those rare gems to epic gems if you have any.

I'd also appreciate if folks could start looking at ICC loot to try and determine what pieces they'd like.

*blinks* The instances haven't even opened yet and there are loot tables?

[Holyssa]

*blinks* The instances haven't even opened yet and there are loot tables?

The loot is data-mined from people testing the available dungeons on PTR. For a list of the goodies (and it's very big, hehe), go here:

Icecrown Raid & Badge Loot

Icecrown's New 5-mans

New Ashen Verdict Faction stuff (throwing this out there so people can check it out)

[Karrock]

Can we assume that there will be no raid tonight due to the regular server crap? Would we try to start in ICC?

K

I *HATE* when people immediately assume that we aren't raiding due to server issues.

We will attempt to start in ICC, if we encounter issues then we'll try ToC. If problems persist then we'll call it. I'm not going to throw in the towel before we even try!

I'm sorry, was I being too realistic for you douches? Ok, let's forget the fact that we have yet to be able to run on a patch day, and we can dismiss the fact that all of the instances are on the same server...instead we should be ultra-optimistic and get our hopes up thinking we are gonna be able to raid! yay! unicorns and rainbows for everyone! Tiz break out your pink bunnies its happy time! Look theres mickey and minnie and that goofy ######!

Of course everyone will be there-its the first time we will have a totally full roster with no one volunteering to sit....cept me of course

Douche

Edit: bass terd? you cant say bass terd on here (spelled properly)? Lame

K

Edited December 8, 2009 by Karrock