get them undercontrol

[qque]

We need to crack down on people not paying attention and listening in raids.  You dont know how close i was to /guildremove qque. If they wont follow my lead or the lead of other officer i will not host another raid.  We need to get the loot stealer weeded out and removed.  Omegas has taken more loot from the fear raid (black saphire and a crown +pp).

[Rumblebore]

okay here are ideas for dealing with problem people.  How we deal with Omegas is a separate issue from this part of the post.

1) 1-2 Officers turn on LOG.  We record all that happens, including looting of items.  When we see a person looting who shouldnt we send a tell to that person to turn over the loot so it appears on the log.  Their response becomes a matter of record that way.

2) one of the things that the Raid window allows is the assigning of looters.  There are 3 ways of assigning looting: 1) Raid Leader only until corpse opens for all to loot (at 6 minutes or less); 2) RL and Group Leaders only loot until corpse opens up; 3) up to 9 people assigned can loot until corpse opens up.  I think that forthwith selection #2 is best for us.

3) When the problem looter is a Group Leader.  This is a serious offense, where the responsibility is abused.  Direct attention to the issue is required.  Either the offender puts up or they are removed with a general announcement of why.(Attention Guild - JoeBlow is being Guild-Removed because he will not turn in the loot he took as an assigned Guild Looter on our last raid.  He refuses to return it after direct orders to do so and this is not acceptable Guild behaviour. He is violating the trust we placed in him and is we do not countenance such greedy behaviour.)  The conversation with JoeBlow should be recorded (LOGged) and posted in members forum.

4) The problem with removing people not listening DURING a raid is that they MUST co-operate with us to make them leave. This means we HAVE to have a wizzy on each raid who can TL away the offender from the raid and have the offender accept that.

Ideas & Worse case scenarios - A) End the raid and announce that because so-and-so is not listening and not being cooperative after repeated attempts to corral their behaviour, we cannot risk the safety of the rest of the guild members on his inability to follow directions. ( Maybe a 3 strikes rule then guild-removal should be put into effect).

B) Talk to other guilds about how they address these problems - take the good and dump the bad. Going to their websites may help.

C) Make everyone go through a trial, like many guild do.  Failure to make it costs them, and may even result in guild-removal.  Lets do research on POSITIVE ways to control this behaviour.  

D) Lets not plan any really significant raids for now until we get the structure we need in place.  

Qque, you did a GREAT job on the raid, but there were several problem people, the worst in my opinion being Omegas.  The others were just grumblers.  Thankfully most left quietly rather than make a big stink.  You DESERVE to vent and all the respect we have to give you.  Take it easy for a while and please don't give up yet.  We have to find the right criteria and guidelines to implement so we have structure to apply disiplineupon the troops with.

Thank you for al the hard work you put into this.

[qque]

:madgo:  :madgo:           :sleep:  :shakehead:

Yep that was my weekend

Well i am gonna go hide in planes of nightmare (no pun intended) ah get 58 si i can cheal.

[Eldoran Nobleheart]

let me speak on a few things and then let me know what u think

1.  I personally removed Omegas on Monday

2. How about this I plan a scheduled raid every Saturday for the next month if someone doesnt listen they leave and are not allowed in the next weeks raid. After that week has passed they will be eligible to attend the following raid where as if they dont listen agian they are booted for one month.If it happens a third time they are guildremoved.

let me know what u think

[Linaboom]

Sounds good Eldy but i think thats one too many chances after the second foul up of not listening on a raid after sitting one out i say just remove them

But thats just me ill give a second chance but third and fourth ......  

I think being banned from one raid should be enough to open their eyes and make them pay attention

[Lotara]

Hello,

Rumblebore as always you put things in proper perspective.  Eldy I think your solution is the best.  I know that I cannot get to every Raid as much as I would like to.  So missing one week may not be enough of a deterant because they might have missed that raid anyways.  If after the first offense, they should be put on probation and given two more chances.  I like the way you put it, the first one for one week and the second for one month and then out of the Guild.

I was glad to see the removal.  The message should get out to the Guild that it has happened and will happen again to people that take advantage of looting.

As a Bard / Cleric I am usually too busy to loot so master looters work well for me.  However, there are times that I do loot in spurts when I can.  That could be considered overlooting.  I would like the warning if people think I am looting to much and I would like the opportunity to give my rational as to why I am doing it.  Also, now that a stack of gems for Symbols cost 210 pp I would also like to recoup some of my losses.  And these gems are even more expensive the higher I go.

And some people try to see where the limits are placed and once they know will abide by those limits/rules.

To all leaders and officers:  Keep up the good work.  The Guild needs you.  Thank you for all of the time spent, and crap taken, to make this one of the best Guilds.

Lotara (Tara) and Zannette (Zann)

[Saite]

There could be other circumstances for not attending a raid as well...my time will become very limited starting next month. I have college courses that are starting on the 6th and my classes go to almost 8pm at night Monday thru Thursday and I have a single class on Fridays. With homework and taking care of my kids, I can't promise that I will be able to attend all the raids. I will try my best but I cant make any promises.

[Leanessa Sylverfoxx]

Well Hun since you asked for opinons...I agree.

Not listening on raids is causing some problems....especially on cr's....Clerics try very hard to make sure everyone is rez'd as quickly as possible and  any cooperation is much appreciated...

And Lotara....I agree with you on the cost of gems except that I pay 224 plat per stack....and on the last raid I went thru 2 stacks...but I don't loot on raids...unless I am told to...and basically because it is a guild raid and it costs to run one...

I think the 3 strikes rule is fair to all....and hopefully after the first time that person will straighten up and not need another warning...

Rum...I give you a lot of credit....you can put things in order and have very valid views...  also...when I started this game there was a web site for Fiery Justice that everyone had to read that was to be accepted as a member...I am sorry I don't remember the site address....I think if we could find it and check it out that we could adopt it to our standards....

QQ ... you are doing a great job organizing the raids....more than I could do...I think I would lose my patience very quickly..

I will be at any and all raids that I am able to attend...for as long as I can....(even if I have to take my pain meds to be able to stay ) and here I would like to make a suggestion....some type of short break...more than a med break or CR ....  some people have to be able to get up and move around for a few mins...maybe not long but still need to move and circulate the blood some...

Ok this has now turned into a book so I will end on this...

Job well done by all....keep up the good work  

[Lotara]

Hello,

Maybe this is not the best time to do this reply just after the POD Raid, but I have got to say some things.

1)  Eldy and QQ (Sol too) you did a great job.  And took a lot of crap.  And I did notice improvements in behaviours.

2)  I was in a guild where things were written out for all guild members to follow.  And if they did not follow them they were out.  We need to do something like that here.  Rum would be the one to put them down in words after the officers have figured out what to say.

3) Our Web site is not used enough by the guild members.  It is difficult to get into and see what is going on.  We need a document stating "How To ..." and need to get it kept updated.  One person responsible for this.  Is there anybody in the guild that could take this on?

4)  This guild needs a Master Looting Team of several people who take this task off the Raid Leaders.  Some of the early participants were replaced later by their alts and both people got loot, while others did not get any.  Maybe a rule about if one of your characters starts a raid then you need Eldy's permission to change characters.  This team could go on all raids and loot or hold open the corpse so others cannot loot.  Make sure that only those on the Raid are considered Primes for the raid get loot.  If everyone gets something, then people not on the original Primes List can get stuff.  It is a lot of work but fair.  We would need to know all Members and their alts which takes us back to the Guild Roster.  Presigns-up may become necessary for future Planes Raids and should be considered.  

5)  This guild needs both a Guild Raid Organization Team and a Guild Raid Leadership team.  After QQ left, Sol left and Eldy went LD, we had a major disconnect on who was doing what.  Lea was busy and there were no other officers on.  Mcmikael was on for Mcmichael and Zannette was on for me.  (maybe the two of us should swap officer roles with our counterparts.)  Anyway, we need a chain of command so when the officers are killed or go LD or just leave we (the whole guild) knows who leads next.  And that person know what he/she is suppost to do.

6)  Also to Lea's answer to me, when the Guild gets money on a raid, could not some of that money go back to the Clerics for Gems, or could the Guild keep a cash of stones and hand them out to the clerics before a raid.  But then, that is a whole nother problem as some clerics would take money or gems, and cast lesser Symbol spell and keep the more expensive ones.  I typically run through a stack.  I can see how Lea could easily run through 2 stacks.  Lol

7)  The clerics and healers need to know who they heal and who they alternately heal.  And organize themselves to maximize heals with minimal mana.

Summary:  I believe we should be having a weekly Officers Meetings to get these issues resolved and then published them to the guild.  I would like to be assigned a task to do, to help out the quild leadership so they don't have to do it all and get fed up and leave.  And since I am so concerned with unappropriate looting I would like to be on that team.  All officers should be on at least one of the teams and could be on all of them.  I purpose an evening a week for one to two hours at max.  To talk, if not to see each other.

Regards,  Lotara (Tara) and Zannette (Zann)

I read this over and there are some pretty strong word there.  But I feel if we all work together, we will make a bigger, stronger guild who can do planes raids.  And as Madd said today "first you need to show your desire to... by ..."  (go on planes raids, ... then first you must go on lesser raids to show you know what to do and how to behave).

[Rumblebore]

Then perhaps we need to redesign the webpage and make a direct link to it, that people can mark as a Bookmark or Favorite. Personally, I usually bypass the main page and head right for this messagebord.

Also, at Innoruuk.com, there is a list of all guilds on our server with links to those that have webpages.  That is the place to find what other guilds are doing.

We should make registering on the webpage (Guildmagic and/or on our webpage) with your MAIN a requirement - Failure to do so within 7 days nets a guildremove.  (I know that sounds harsh, but after we do it a few times, then people with get the message and register - They dont have to constantly visit the site, just register so we know you exist. Of course, updates are a great idea.)

One thing that seems to come across to me - We are moving towards becoming a higher-end guild.  We are in transition. But we have many who are not pushing towards that with us. We have several newbie PLAYERS (with characters also).  It seems to me that being a high-end gamer requires a different dedication than just casual relaxed gaming.  Sure, we still can have fun, but our focus becomes sharper and more exacting, and there becomes a NEED for help and support from others.

I don't think we have that mentality very strong nor do many seem to want to develop that.  But many do want this. And I see that as the reason many high end players leave the guild.  They want that.  Qques recent post about Tuesday night is an example of that.  There is NOTHING wrong about that attitude, and his hunger for more organized and supportive play is becoming my desire too.  So long as I am not REQUIRED to play x hours a day, per day, per week, per month, etc, then I will want to see that develop.  And I think for us as a guild, putting our intent and goals down in writing HAS to be a first step so we can easily reference and define where we want to go and how to get there, and with whom.  

I also think that once we have it in print, then we can cull the herd and start getting the players we want and need.  I really thing a Statement of Purpose and Guild Guidelines is needed.  Sure we can continue to raid and learn.  

I am one who will stay with something until it is practically dead. I am dedicated to THIS guild.  But I want to see the transition made from grouping to Raiding Mentality.  To Organized play, where people learn and know their part.  And accept that like the way the guy did in my post in Discussion, where he was there just to support the Guild, and eventually he got a high end Drop because his time had come and the GUILD determined he was next to get it.

I could name a certain druid who seems to always question drops - he wants a roll even where the item is not for his class.  I hope to see that become less and less a pert of this guild.  I expect to see it in newer players to EQ, but I hiope to see it slowly weeded out of more experienced players. I understand the want for new items. I have it too.  But I want to try the high end play - where we all work together, like a team, and support each other even if we dont gain items.

Thats it for now.

[Lotara]

Rumblebore you hit the nail on the head again.

I feel that I also have made the transition from casual player to more advanced player.  I have been playing EQ for almost three years (in Jan 03) and yet my highest character is one of my newest Zann.  Early on I was in a great guild which split and then folded.  So I played casually because of RL.  Then I was invited into Tribunal Knights of Old.  And my world expanded when I got to group with really great people.  Now I am in SLoT and have been on a few raids with some fantastic people.  I am ready to advance further and faster now.  I want to learn.  I want constructive feedback.

I think that we need to weed out players by experience levels based upon conduct (talking, looting, etc.) and by Raids attended (and by level such as the guild is judged on starting with Kael).  Players that have good conduct should be allowed on the higher level raids.  And a Planes Raid participation should be won by hard work.

How to do this, I don't know.  I know Raid's require a lot of planning and organizing.  This is where the more experienced people need to lead.  We need more raids and Eldy you are doing a great job to make more available to us.

Maybe also along with the Direct Link to the main guild forum site we should have an Honor Code.  Do we still need all of the forums?  Or can we elimintate some of them?  Or better yet can the Forum Button on the main page go only to OUR forum which has been simplified.  Reorganized into only those that are current and listed by last reply dates.  Who does this for us?  A member of the guild or someone from Thehonorempire.org?  I don't know how to do a lot of things, but I know what I want to see happen and I will volunteer to help with Forum simplification and organization.

Eldoran and Qque please lead and let us know how to help you.

Regards,  Lotara (Tara) and Zannette (Zann)

[Eldoran Nobleheart]

Lea i appoligize i thought u knew i buy all supplies for raids that includes peridots and so forth what ever is needed.

BTW Guildbank status is at 7k

[Leanessa Sylverfoxx]

Zann I have to agree with you on one point mainly....simplify....

By the time someone can read thru everything on the guild site...they are bored....tired ....it takes too long to weed thru everything....so how do we manage to keep it short and sweet???

But I do have a question here....being a cleric....and buying my own supplies...(Eldy I read your statment, and I will get to that in a min..hun.) How, when, where, will we get the time to farm some plat for those supplies if we are constantly on raids???

And also...I was in a group with a canter or caster of one kind that I was talking to...and found that they also need peridots for some of their high end buffs....so trying to be fair here....it wouldn't be just the clerics that need the gems...

7K in the guild bank is impressive....but being realistic here....7k won't last long if you give each cleric or canter a stack or 2 of peridots....per raid...

I have been on one raid that Eldy gave me a stack of peridots...out of all the raids I have been on....but seeing the cost of these gems...I don't ask or expect the guild to pay for them all the time...if I don't have any and I am really needed on a raid then I will let the raid leader know...

Eldy....I know that on each raid the guild pays for hate stones, and such...coffins for necros to summons corpses...things of that nature...so here is a suggestion...and maybe someone can refine it for me (Rum)...think about raids for a certain class....for supplies for raids...one day set aside for Canter, another for Clerics..etc...and get the guild to join in for this so that not one person is doing all the work???

Maybe get a trusted member of that class to hold the funds and before the raid make sure that enough of the gems are available and hand them out before the raid....a stack at a time...

Which brings up another issue....sorry guys...I know this is long..

Is it possible before a raid to have a memeber of each class that is going to attend the raid to have a meeting to get stratigies straightened out??  Then when I starte getting tells from all the clerics asking what they should do and how they should do it ....I can at least tell them something???

So maybe have a head Ranger, head Shaman, head Canter, head Cleric and so on so that if people have a question they can ask the head member of their class..

Ok this is just something to think about...please let me know what you think about these situations.

Leanessa Nobleheart

[Eldoran Nobleheart]

Ok to Answer Lea's question the guildbank will always have loot when we do bug raaid like fear and hate i sell all jewels on the market. I normally get about 10-20 blue diamonds which i get roughly about 500pp a piece so thats 5k i just reimbursed from the raid. Next i also sell sellable drops as well that normally nets around 1 to 2k, So lets say i do a Hate Raid i spend roughly about 9k on the raid and turn around ad make 7k so i loose roughly about 2k, how do i recoupe the other 2k you ask, simple i gather it on my journeys

Strategizing with every class can be done easily if we follow Saites idea and make two captains of every class. so you guys give me an idea of who u want in each class but please take my name out of the hat for rangers i have enough on my plate as it is i would recomend Wageit for that spot

[Lotara]

I love Lea's idea about a meeting of classes before Raids.  Clerics particularly need to know whom we are to buff, heal and backup heal.  Who to watch out for, etc.  Who will do the Rezzing.  Once the groups are established we clerics (in fact all healers) need a few minutes to figure out our stratey for the Raid.  This includes (especially for new ones like myself):

1.  What to expect on the Raid

2.  Who to Buff, or who is doing buffing

3.  Who to watch for heals (it becomes very difficult to watch more that one person over those in my group)

4.  Priority of heals, (when push comes to shove, whom do I heal first, second, third) and how the Druids/Shamen can help

5.  Who to Rezz, or who is doing Rezzing and it what order

6.  When we are in a total wipeout, which Cleric will camp in the area (along with a FD monk) so that when it is all clear, the monk can alert the cleric to re-enter the game to begin Rezzs.  This is when the Cleric Epic comes in handy.

7.  Coordination with Druids and Shamen on Buffs and Heals.

8.  Coordination with Druids and Wiz on evacs (so we will not be left behind if we have cast our invulnerability spell)

9.  All other concerns

I also like the idea of two captains or a Captain and a Lt. and I think Lea should be one of them.  She has been a tremendous help to me in the three Raids I have gone on.

Also, as a side note: in the CoM Raid, I was not grouped with any pet and it was almost impossible to target the Mage Pet (if you are not in a group with them).  I had to get very, very close to them in order to do that.  And hard name targeting was hard when they died and I had to target the new pet.  Superior Heal is better than Complete Heal in this situation, at least at my level, the pets were dead by the time I got CH off.  Two healers casting SH whould be better.

Regards, Tara and Zann

[Krung]

See I told you I havent been on in a while. Qque I think you did a great job organizing the Raid. I want to apologize for having to leave so early into it I was visiting my parents for thanksgiving and they were bugging. Anyway, I was talking to a high lvl RL friend of mine on a different server that raids all the time. She said the way we broke through the gate was a good idea and that under normal circumstances would have worked great. She suggested using a pally for it because of the invulnerabilty buff they have. I would more than happily do it again though it was fun. If you havent noticed I am not to concerned with dieing or the effects either exp can be regained. If I hadnt been stunned and had 30 mobs on me your plan would have worked perfectly but it was a connection issue I think I kept lagging. I apologize for my part in making your job harder. Oh well , the whole point of this is that my friend said if we ever need help or advice I can cross server tell her and she will more than Happily help any way she can. (advice suggestions) So let me know iff I can be of any help. After this month and next month things should calm down for myself and Rebma. Will be seeing us in game alot more I think. Yall have been a great family and We both appreciate your friendship and companionship. Thank you. I would like ot be a major part of this guild one day and hope that I can be of help soon.

Krung

Warrior of the 50th season (hit 50 again last night) hehehe