guild points

[Eldoran Nobleheart]

id like ur imput here

if like to heep points at a low number like 10 points for showing up on raids and like 2 points for dying at raids so on and so forth

[Rumblebore]

I went to the link Shawdar provided in another post about Guildpoints and found the following info:

Afterlife Dragon Lotto Rules       

  Take note, these rules apply only to dragons and gods, specifically to Lady Vox, Lord Nagafen, Dracoliche, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, and bosses in Plane of Sky.

?Overview

  Every time a player helps to kill one of these big creatures, they get a Dragon Kill Point, or DKP. Whenever that player then enters in for an item from one of these big creatures they get as many chances to win as they have DKP's. If a player wins an item, they lose DKP's equal to the value of the item.

  This system is designed to limit the effect of luck, and to avoid "bad lottos." A bad lotto is when someone wins an item, and those present say "he/she should not have won." This is the case when, say, a druid wins a Mistwalker instead of a ranger. Or when someone has been on dragon raid after dragon raid seeking to win one particular item, and someone new (or anyone with less time invested) shows up and wins it. This system solves these problems and others.

?Tiers

  Tiers are designed to ensure that those with more time invested win an item before those with less time invested. In theory, over time the extra chances those with more DKP's would have would win them items, but there's still the possibility that someone with a great deal of time invested will lose to someone with little time invested, which is a bad lotto.

  The tiers are set up so that those with similar amounts of time invested (e.g. their DKP values are close) lotto for items, while those with significantly less DKP's are excluded.

  When an item is dropped, those in tier 1 or possibly 1+X (see below) are the only ones that can enter. If nobody that wants the item enters at this level, then those in the second tier can enter. If it's no drop, then the lotto moves to tiers three and four, otherwise it goes to the guild treasury and is kept until the next big event. At the next event interested players can lotto for it, and lottos go through tiers 1 through 3.

  If, after a week or 3 events, whichever is longer, an item is still in the guild treasury, the class restrictions are removed, and anyone can enter in for the item. This means the items can be purchased (with DKP's) for use by an under level 46 twink.

  If it is apparent that nobody will be entering in for an item, it can eventually be sold for Hate or Sky money.

  Those that aren't present at a raid can still enter in on items, as shown in the tiers, but they pay a 50% DKP penalty. This means that if an item would normally cost 10 DKPs and it's won by someone that isn't present, it costs them 15 DKPs.

  Tier 1+X - These tiers are special tiers, for cases when there is more than one person in tier 1. If there is more than one person in tier 1, and one or more of them have 5 or more points over the value of the item, then a new tier is used, tier 1+5, containing only those players that have 5 or more DKP points over the value of the item. If there is still more then one, and someone has 10 points over, go to tier 1+10. Then tier 1+15, 1+20, etc.

  For example, 3 players enter for a 5 point item. One with 5 points, one with 10 points, and one with 15 points. The lotto would take place at tier 1+10, and would contain only the character with 15 points. If the same lotto occurred with a 4th person with 17 points, the lotto would still be tier 1+10, and would contain both the 15 and 17 point players.

  Tier 1 - Must have full positive DKP value for the item and be present.

  Tier 2 - Must have full positive DKP value for the item and be present or have 1.5x positive DKP value and be anywhere.

  Teir 3 - Must have full positive DKP value for the item and be present or have 0.75x positive DKP value and be anywhere. If won in the second manner, the cost is still 1.5x normal, but the remote player doesn't need all the DKPs up front.

  Tier 4 - This tier is only for no drop items. When it is reached, the player(s) with the least negative DKP values that want the item can enter.

  If a player doesn't have enough DKP's to pay for it outright, they simply go negative. Until they have positive DKP's again they can't enter any lottos.

?Lotto Restrictions - Who can enter

  Only those players that can actually use the item (i.e. class/race is listed on the item, with exceptions noted below for certain items) can enter the lotto. If a player has more than one character that is dragon capable (level 46+), then they can enter as any of them provided they say so before the creature dies. This is so everyone knows who they'll be lottoing against. If someone looks around and sees only two people they'll be lottoing against, and something great drops for their class, they shouldn't have to suddenly compete with 10 others that come out of the woodwork.

?After an item is won

  Any items won through this system (except as noted above) can not be traded, sold, or given away without prior consent.  Items can be given to a secondary, but only if the item is won in a secondary lotto, or the item has been replaced with something better, after the item was won.  Items no longer wanted can be put up for lotto at any big event.  If someone enters and wins it, they receive back DKP's equal to the value of the item. Basically the winner transfers their DKP's to the person putting up the item. If noone wants it, they keep it, and get no DKP's but can try again next lotto. Items that nobody wants can be turned in to the treasury for half DKP value. If the item was won outside of our DKP system, it can be turned in to the system, but at half normal DKP's.

?Big Mob DKP Values

  Because of the loot dropped, different big mobs give different amounts of DKP's.

?DKP Values

  Here are the items we have points for so far, and any special rules for who can enter in a lotto for the item. Please refer to the Values page.

Here is a sample of a few items from Naggy and Innoruuk and their point value:

DKP Point...............Item

1.............................Bladestopper (Naggy)

1.............................Blight, Hammer (Naggy)

6..............................Cloak of Flames (Haste Item - Naggy)

18.............................Cloak of Frozen Flames (Vex Thal - Flowing Thought IV)

10............................Red Dragon Scale (Naggy)

4..............................Selo's Drums of the March

4..............................Rakusha Cloak (Haste Item - Inny)

10 ..........................Staff of Elemental Mastery: Earth (Inny)

As you can see, the values of getting a point here and there are offset by a similar value on items - Clearly a haste item like the Cloak of flames means you have to Raid 6 times at least to be able to be in on the lotto when it drops.

So, assigning values to key items, things we would consider "Landmark" Items, will determine other item values as well as what to award .

Hope this helps stimulate the thinking.

[Lotara]

*GRIN* If I get points for dying, I might do it more often.

Shaw's post looks like a good start but taylored to our Guild and someone to take ownership of the System

Tara and Zann

[Shawdar]

ok all I missed this topic but I will take some ownership here

Guild Point System

As I said in my first post, this is a ruff draft and I'm looking for more input as to how I should lay out the webpage,

Also I would be willing to keep the page up to date and host it from my webiste,

Shawdar Shadowfyre

[Shawdar]

ok here is some input,

1 point for being @ guild raid

3 points for being at a posted guild raid and signing up on website 24 hours in advance of raid

1 point for each complet hour of attendance at the raid

10 points for assisting in the kill of boss mobs lvl 50+ and present for whole duration of raid

currently thinking of more,

Shawdar

mindwracks his brian for more stupid thoughts

a thought on rules, for earning guild points:

to earn guild points there must be no less then three officers present

during the raid to insure fair points to be awarded, also only raids that

have been posted on guild raid webiste will be considered, and there

Must be a 48 hour window for members to sign up before raid takes place,

the leader or officer in charge of the raid will post the points earned by

each member, to the guild website in the raid forum,

A sample of this would be:

eldoran opens a post in Eq Raid Forum

Topic: Raid on Kael 03/15/2003

Subtopic: Leader Eldoran, assist Galdin, Shawdar.

Body of Raid and text about raid

and other needed notes and thoughts,

at this point guild members sign up ,

After the raid the raid leader comes back and Edits the post of the

outcome of the raid and any items that need to be listed into the

Guild Treasury,

who got points at the raid and how many ponits they recived

and also who got no drop items and the points spent on the

the no drop item.

EQ Raids

also in subject of points, No officer or leader shall be given any extra points,

as leaders and officers we should set the standard and earn our points as

if we are no different from any other guild member,

1a:Lotto Restrictions - Who can enter in Raid at time of drop.

Only those players that can actually use the item

(i.e. class/race is listed on the item, with exceptions noted below for certain items)

can enter the lotto.

2: When a member of the guild wins or takes a item from guild lotto or Guild Treasury

they must turn over the item they currently have in that slot if it is not a no drop item,

or if the item they would be turning in to Guild Treasury would be needed for a later quest (IE such as epic items)

That item will be placed back into the Guild Treasury and bids for that item will be

opened at a later date. at the point when bids are opened the current holder will

post in the members forum that an item listed in guild treasurey is open for bids,

the bid will stay open for a period of one week, from the date of the origanl post,

all guild members will be able to post a bid for the item, provided they have the

current points to cover there bid, also no item in the guild treasury will be under bid,

By this we mean to say if the value is posted at 100 points then bidder must bid at

least the 100 points, after the bid is sealed to the highest bidder the points will be

transfered to the the player know as the holder, and the holder will turn over the

the gear to the highest bidder, A officer must be present at the point of turn over,

at this point the officer who was there will post in the guild forum who the item

was given to and that the Officer inspected the guild member and found the gear

Shown on that player, and the date it took place.

mindwracks his brian for more stupid thoughts

on the subject of tiers I also feel this is a good idea, older guild members should

not be competing with younger guild members for items that will be considered

for the point system, In this I mean that if you have been in the guild for 1 year

and wish to spend points on a item then you should not have to contest with a

guild member who has been in the guild only three months,

here are some basic thoughts:

Tier lvl 1 = New guild members up to 3 months, and 25 guild raids or less

Tier lvl 2 = Guild members over 3 months, 25+ guild raids up to 50 raids of exp

Tier lvl 3 = Guild members over 3 months, 50+ guild raids up to 75 raids of exp

Tier lvl 4 = Guild members over 6 months, 75+ guild raids up to 100 raids of exp

Tier lvl 5 = Guild members over 6 months, 100+ guild raids up to 200 raids of exp

Tier lvl 6 = Guild members over 9 months, 200+ guild raids

Still hammering out more in my head,

lol this post has become my scratch pad of thoughts so I will just keep editting to my ideas here

[mcmichael]

this seems fairly well done shaw.as alllways...but a couple things come to mind,how to award points to an item?obviously the items can't have the same points ....but take the thurg arms and such...they are obviously a good drop,not the best,but good...(i know they are no drop,is just a for instance) are they worth say 4 points?and if they are,me being lvl 5 tier,i would bid and if no one ellse in my tier or higher bids,then i automatically win?not trying to be dense here.....just seeing if i have the right idea...then i pass my current arms on to guild bank and they can be bid on at a later date by guild in general....?am i then awarded some points back for loss of old equip?personally,i am not too worried about it atm...as most of my equip is either no drop or mid range stuff(bp is the exception).........i am asking questions,not poking holes..just wanna know if i am getting the gist of what you have posted...as far as the points awarded goes for raid,seems fair,in all reality,could quite possibly rack up 20+ points a raid if i understand it correctly.once again,if i am misunderstanding something here...let me know...well,is late...will talk to you all in game..later

[Shawdar]

thanks for your post mcmichael you have the right idea and you seem to follow the flow of thought I am projecting,

how to award points to an item?obviously the items can't have the same points ....but take the thurg arms and such...they are obviously a good drop,not the best,but good...(i know they are no drop,is just a for instance)

this is a matter that all the officers need to get invovled in, and decide what would be a fair value to place on this item

are they worth say 4 points?and if they are,me being lvl 5 tier,i would bid and if no one ellse in my tier or higher bids,then i automatically win

yup you have the right idea, or if there are two bids in the same tier lvl the highest bidder would win

provided they have the current points to cover there bids,

then i pass my current arms on to guild bank and they can be bid on at a later date by guild in general....?am i then awarded some points back for loss of old equip?

Right again, the thought is this that once the bid is closed and final the highest bidder would get the item and you would then get the points from the highest bidder add to your points from his or her points in the value of the current final bid,

as far as the points awarded goes for raid,seems fair,in all reality,could quite possibly rack up 20+ points a raid

yes again I'm trying to keep it simple, and want to make each raid productive while guild members earn points but I dont want the officers to work over time and be distracted while scoring points,

I kind of figerued that 20-25 points per raid would be a good base point to work from

hope this help you with the line of thoughts I'm haveing

Shawdar Shadowfyre

[Rumblebore]

One potential issue that will probably arise. I thought of it because Davain has a specific issue that could feasably arise IF he were planar ready. Realize, that these are possibilities, not yet realities.

Let say Davain gets to level 46 and is along on a raid to (somewhere) after raiding for a while. He has enough points to lotto on a nice robe and winds up winning the robe. He is currently wearing a Shiny Metallic Robe which he purchased himself. He needs said robe (SMR) for his Epic. According to the rules :

2: When a member of the guild wins or takes a item from guild lotto or Guild Treasury

they must turn over the item they currently have in that slot if it is not a no drop item,

That item will be placed back into the Guild Treasury and bids for that item will be

opened at a later date.

That definitely doesn't sit well with Davain and obviously the situation warrants some measure of consideration. Once Davain turns in the SMR for his epic he would need a new robe anyways. So, perhaps the requirement that the item in the slot being turned into the guild is a little too much and needs some review.

Also, lets say my wizzy (wearing a Crystalline Robe right now - Bazaar Bought) is on a guild raid in LGuk and has enough points to claim the SMR in lotto. Does he have to turn in his bazaar bought item to get the SMR? Do we want to make that kind of rule - that hard won and paid for items MUST be part of the Lotto claim for a new item?

I raise these questions simply for review. I am unlikely to run into these issues anytime soon, but others may be close to this. My thoughts are that to make it required to do this is one step too far, but it should be encouraged that Guild members strongly consider doing this because it could wind up helping out another guild member starving for a better item like a Crystalline Robe, for instance.

BTW - Well thought out Shaw - it seems to cover most things and I am still mulling over some stuff, but keep this going - It looks really good so far.

[Nurlaten]

The guild point system looks great and should work well, but i wonder if it is feasible. If 20 to 30 people show up to a raid and we are giving points left and right, who keeps track of them? This system looks like a lot of work, and it appears shaw has already put a ton into it. When a no drop item drops, in the next 8 mins, do we have enough time to tell everyone who is there how many points they currently have (because you know most people aren't going to remember), how much the item is worth and ask them for their bids? We can't start a raid within a half hour of when it's scheduled, i dunno if we can get all the information to people and get them to loot the corpse before it rots.

Another question i have is what consistutes a raid? The afterlife system only cares about big kills and the points only matter on those big kills. If we "raid" the factory in poi, does that count for raid points? I think of that as just guild grouping. Does a kael raid count as a raid and are points awarded? There are a lot of other lines that we have to decide on whether points should be awarded or not. In the last few months the only "big kill" that i think afterlife would have rewarded points on was ixiblat. That raid was planned in advance, we got 30 people to show up, and he's a high level mob.

Basically there are a lot of grey areas for me. Mainly what raids do we award points for? Do we have a massive database of points for drops or are we assigning points when an item drops? And if we are awarding 20 to 25 points to 20 to 30 people, who gets the fun of keeping track of them all?

Personally the recent method of distributing to those that are on the current raid and need the item, works well for me. The only tiered guild i've ever raided with is Endless Endeveor, Torzam invited me to a couple kills. Their system is that the officers determine who loots what, they have all the magelo profiles of the people in their raid and know what gear each member has. I imagine many of the things we'll reward points for is taking into consideration when making the decisions. This system is also a lot of work, for the officers. It seems the only system that doesn't take any effort is randoming, and i hope it doesn't come to that. Not just becuase i'm a terrible dice roller (naggy raid; 2 cof dropped, ran 1 to 1000, i rolled a 25 and a 56 in a row, that's my luck), but it doesn't reward people for their commitment.

After rereading my post, i just want to say, don't think i despise the point system, i just have a ton of questions on whether it can go from concept into practice. Also you don't need to answer every question, many are hypothetical and simply there to make you think. As long as it doesn't go back to randoming on everything that drops, i'll be happy.

[Shawdar]

Ok this is why I was asking for all the officers input, so that we refine rework and hammer out the fine print of the point system

The guild point system looks great and should work well, but i wonder if it is feasible. If 20 to 30 people show up to a raid and we are giving points left and right, who keeps track of them? This system looks like a lot of work, and it appears shaw has already put a ton into it. When a no drop item drops, in the next 8 mins, do we have enough time to tell everyone who is there how many points they currently have (because you know most people aren't going to remember), how much the item is worth and ask them for their bids? We can't start a raid within a half hour of when it's scheduled, i dunno if we can get all the information to people and get them to loot the corpse before it rots.

my thoughts on how could we know who has what points,

in game there is a new guild tool in game that allows us to

enter personal notes and public notes before the start of a raid the officer that is assisting in the raid, can go to the guilds point system page write down the points for those in the raid and place there current

point value in the public section of the guild tool, another thing that can can be done is just to stay in window mode and alt-shift-r to the desktop, so that you can view the page, I'm not saying this this new point system will not to some hard work, because it will take some hard work, but in order for the guild to grow and keep things fair a form of the point system is neeeded, As officers in the guild we are expected to take on a work load of sorts, the title of OFFICER bears responsibilty and not just a fanncy title to impress others with,

As to the person who would mantaine the point system and keep it up

to date and make the needed changes, I have applyied for the postion

I have a ver good working knowledge of website design and html scripting,

Another question i have is what consistutes a raid? The afterlife system only cares about big kills and the points only matter on those big kills. If we "raid" the factory in poi, does that count for raid points? I think of that as just guild grouping. Does a kael raid count as a raid and are points awarded? There are a lot of other lines that we have to decide on whether points should be awarded or not. In the last few months the only "big kill" that i think afterlife would have rewarded points on was ixiblat. That raid was planned in advance, we got 30 people to show up, and he's a high level mob.

at this point my: I would reffer to my section in my post

to earn guild points there must be no less then three officers present

during the raid to insure fair points to be awarded, also only raids that

have been posted on guild raid webiste will be considered, and there

Must be a 48 hour window for members to sign up before raid takes place,

the leader or officer in charge of the raid will post the points earned by

each member, to the guild website in the raid forum,

A sample of this would be:

eldoran opens a post in Eq Raid Forum

Topic: Raid on Kael 03/15/2003

Subtopic: Leader Eldoran, assist Galdin, Shawdar.

Body of Raid and text about raid

and other needed notes and thoughts,

the point system will be at a young age and members will need to earn points, so for now this should be the guide lines, as to how points can be earned, as we gorw and get used to the system when can then modify it to suit the needs of the guild,

as to Rumblebore's postion on:

Also, lets say my wizzy (wearing a Crystalline Robe right now - Bazaar Bought) is on a guild raid in LGuk and has enough points to claim the SMR in lotto. Does he have to turn in his bazaar bought item to get the SMR? Do we want to make that kind of rule - that hard won and paid for items MUST be part of the Lotto claim for a new item?

yes it is my postion that the old item should be turned over to the guild and lottoed off, not only will this help other guild members, it will help the guild to gain strenght, My point to this is simple, "what about the the hard won prize that a member of the guild recives at the end of a four hour guild raid, could that guild member have gained that upgrade

with out the support of the guild? so in turn I feel it is best that the guild member give back to the guild, this shows support for the guild

and all its members, and takes the me and my money factor out of it,

any how there is my thoughts on the questions and points of intrest or debate

Shawdar Shadowfyre

[mcmichael]

try looking at it this way rumble,you are in bazaar,you have half the pp to buy the "robe" but in order to get the "robe" you would have to sell SMR,now,if this were a actual situation, the "robe' would have to be a major upgrade to take and sell a piece yoiu need for your epic...in this manner you would not be bidding on a questionable upgrade to smr would you?and same for the bazaar robe you spoke of,it would prolly have to be a decent upgrade for you to spend tha pp,so you pass on bid,let it go to the next person......granted you might not have gottne anything this time,but you have saved points for when you deem the upgrade worthy of your points AND gear...as for no drops....that one could get messy...would like to hear thoughts on looting no drops...

p.s. rumble,you would get points back for the smr,depending on how much was bid by another guildie...i am thinking there might be a need for a min bid on certain "guild bank items".

p.p.s. hmmm,how about the ability to bid on your own items?would lose all of you "bid points" but that could solve rumbles point....

[Nurlaten]

the title of OFFICER bears responsibilty and not just a fanncy title to impress others with,

I think this is very important. I mentioned it elsewhere, but might as well repeat myself. Hopefully sometime soon we can start assigning tasks for particular officers. People in charge of specific classes, someone in charge of coordianting raids, a person in charge of getting epics done, someone in charge of the guild bank, a recruiting officer and more... Some tasks may require multiple people, some people might have multiple tasks. This is just an idea to get people thinking.

Right now, correct me if i'm wrong haven't been an officer very long, eldy is basically in charge of everything and the officers deal with stuff when he isn't online. The only thing i've really done since being promoted is invite a few new people, i think being on officer should require me to commit more time and effort to our guild.

[Rumblebore]

Mcm,

I see your point but my first issue has not been addressed. If Davain were to see a robe that is an upgrade to SMR (which he is wearing now - really) and wants to lotto it, but he has not turned in his SMR for epic, it is essentially WRONG to require him to turn that in an to have to bid on it using his lotto points. In that way he 1) Uses lotto points to get the new robe and 2) uses some amount of lotto points to get BACK his SMR.

The situation does NOT warrant this rule.

Of course, this is clearly a rare exception. i can easily get past it by trading out the SMR to my wizzy, putting the Crystalline on Davain, then going to the lotto , but wouldnt that essentially be considered cheating the guild?? Also, what if Davain were to get into a bidding war with a higher level Chanter and loses the SMR to someone else? Then he has to camp the SMR? I paid 7k for that robe (to the guild) months ago. Should I count that cost wasted? And what if he were to get into a bidding war but won? Then the actual cost for him to get the New Robe would HAVE to include the cost of getting back the very robe he already owned.

That is WRONG.

I understand that this method alows a certain control on people coming in, raiding for a while, turning in points to get a really nice item, then bailing on the guild. But SOME allowance needs to be built in.

Another example, Rumble finds that we looted a 1HS that outdoes his SotM by far. But it doesnt have a proc on it. He wants a proc for soloing, but needs a damage dealing weapon for grouping. He wants both items. According to this rule, he has to turn in a weapon he desires to keep to get a weapon that will definitely improve his attendance on raids.

Now that will not be a rare occurence. Melees often have multiple weapons for different styles of play. To HAVE to turn in a favored weapon to get another one will definitely upset some people.

To turn in something like a Velium Wedding RIng for one of the new crafted rings (of Virtue or something like that) may not be such a bad thing. But the things like a weapon for a melee or a SMR for an enchanter creates issues that should be resolved in advance.

Again, this issue needs more review.

[Leanessa Sylverfoxx]

The general concept is a good one...but I agree with Rumble...most of the items on Lea are Bought...by me....or no drop from Hate...or another zone ....which Lea spent time in and working hard to be able to even random those items...and I don't random on all the items....only the ones that would help my stats out....and most of the time if someone else needs the item in question...I pass the roll so that the other person has a better chance of winning the item he needs....which in the long run means that I end up putting out plat to get a better item....

So I am in agreement with Rum that turning in an item that I worked hard for isn't quite fair...also I will mention this....I rarely sell any items in Bazaar....I GIVE the items away to someone that needs it...and that includes weapons...spells....jewelry that I make and someone needs...any drop items that I loot in a group that I think someone in the guild might have better use for I give to the guild along with plat...

And very rarely will I take any gems on a raid....I buy my own especially if this raid is planned in advance and I know that I need to replenish my supplies....if it is a spur of the moment raid I will only take enough gems to complete my supply or as many gems as I think I will need on that raid....

This also saves the guild the expense of paying for gems to supply to the clerics or class that needs gem components to cast certain spells...

I guess my question would be.... How would this effect those of us that already donate time, effort, and items to the guild without thinking about a payback??? In my case...I would rather see someone in the guild get the items they need. I do not look to the guild to pay for my char's outfitting...but if I see something that would better my stats then I will ask that person about the item in question...if I can afford to pay for the item by all means I do so....

If not then I can wait for the item in question...or maybe plan a camp for the item...and again take my changes of winning that item in a random...

This reminds me of another question about the point system....sorry...Are all the points we earn going to be based on raids only at this time??

More points for planned raids....less points for spur of the moment raids??? But points are awarded for raids only??

And who can count all the raids a char has been on??? I have lost count of the raids and the hours I have sat at raids so I know no one else has kept track of them all....

Sorry these are just a few things I am trying to get straightened out for my peace of mind....

Leanessa Nobleheart

ps....Do I get extra point for keeping Eldy alive? Roflmao...

[Krung]

Correct Rumble. I think that the point system has merit but its being taken in the wrong context. Now if you show up for a raid and get your points and bid on an Item and win it. You EARNED that item. Yes you wouldnt have gotten it without the guild but you were there supporting your guild and had the points and time in to earn that item. Now if you have a GUILD loaned item that the afore mentioned bidding item replaces then yes you should have to give the "guild item" back. But I am sorry I had a life and characters before SLoT and everything on them is bought with blood sweat and tears. To FORCE me to surrender those items for another item that I earned by my attendance and dedication to the guild is wrong. Just plain Wrong. No I am not greedy no I am not stingy. Just ask anyone who has ever asked for something from me. When I have it I am known to give out pp to strangers. To outfit newbies or people in whole outfits of armor. I have given away weapons, robes. We Would have given away my Tolapjn's robe to Svinter if I had known he needed it before it sold. We gave away a centi SS to someone that really wanted it. The whole point of it is These were all personal Choices. Noone forced me to do it. Now if I get an upgrade to something and dont need or want the previous item then by all means I would more than happily give up the replaced item. However, if I know I will NEED that item later, such as the SMR for my epic? You couldnt pry it out of my dead fingers. and for you to demand it does nothing but show greed. It is not greed to save what you will need later only prudance and wisdom to prepare for the future. Very hot topic here. If I can part with an item I will but if I cant I wont. Right now Krung is not wearing anything he couldnt part with if he got an upgrade. Neither is Synthania. However if Either of them were wearing a piece or part of an Epic or item that would be needed later I would not surrender it either and noone should ask them too. just my opinion.

[Shawdar]

As you all know this was my ruff draft, the point of my post was to get you all thinking about the point system and what would be fair and what would not,

As I have watched the post debate I see that you have some very vaild points,

so I had to ask myself the same question, blood sweat & tears, nope I would not give up my

my Tae ew Tunic, first reason would be that I it was my first highend breastplate that I made

so it has a sentamental value to me that could not be replaced with any amount of Plat,

So after due consideration I feel that I need to change my words to

If you have a item that you would like to give back to the guild we

will open bidding for it at a later date,

Also I would like thank you all for your thoughts and time in these posts,

Shawdar Shadowfyre

[Lotara]

I also would like to state that a lot of equipment on Zannette would fit me and I can use all of the help I can get. Zann would pass on a lot of things if she had to turn her items in instead of giving them to me.

Endless Endeavour has a three person Loot Team with one of the members having a lap top with all of the current numbers in it - numbers from the last Raid. They decide who will get what and what goes into the Guild Treasurery. The Guild Master has a final say if he does not agree with Team and they usually go by what he says. One of the Team is the Coordinator and is the only person that people in the guild can go to if they dispute the way that loot was handled. Other team members and Guild Leader do not take tells about that. They use a point system basically but it is not available for the players, just the Team. Most if not all of EE are happy with Loot System.

Zannette and Lotara

[Saite]

I think that I get the jist about the point system but the question I have is about the Tiers.

Say for instance Nada is on a Kael raid and plate leggings drop, she has to be tier 4 or above to be even considered for the bidding??

I just checked her tier level and she is at tier 2 which I do have some questions about. I, with all my chars, have been a part of this guild for more than a year and there are some people that are several tiers higher than me that have not been in as long as I have. I have attended many, many raids with all my chars, Nada is just now getting high enough to do what my other chars did. I dont understand how you are making the decisions on who gets what tier. Could you explain this part alittle bit more please.

[Nurlaten]

Few grey areas for me that i would like an answer.

Do alts have a seperate point amount than mains? If i bring my rogue on a raid to kael, can i bid nurl's points on a drop? Or does my rogue have his own personal points?

Another question regarding the tiers: Are tiers the primary consideration for a drop or are points. The way i interpreted this system is that the higher tier wins if they have the points to cover their bid, regardless of how many points the lower tiered people have. Last night eldy stated that points were the main deciding factor and that tiers were only used to settle ties in bidding. Which one is it? Personally i think points should be the only thing that matters as your commintment to the guild will be shown by how many points you've accumulated.

All in all the system looks pretty good, keep up the great work shaw.

[aaeodar]

Id say as long as your alt was the appariot lvl to use the effects to the armor i wouldnt question it but if some one else can use or is in need then unless they are instred in that item you shouldnt think about bidding on it . how would you feel if some ones alt was able to outbid your main b/c of teir . i know i would be mad that an alt is getting better equiped then a main in the guild .