Rebma Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 The buying of high level spells. KEI scroll costs 40k. Blessing of Aegolism cost 15k. Should it be our chanters and clerics that have to buy these spells out of their own pockets, i don't think so. I don't know about you, but i have noticed that raids are working better now that we have daulton capable of aego-ing and zymmit capable of kei-ing. Just think of all the money that is spent buying KEI everyday in the nexus and be glad that now you don't need to worry about it as much because zymmit has it. Would you rather have heroic bond (19 AC 425 hp) or aego (60 AC 1150 hp)? Would you rather have Clarity II (11 mp/tic lasts 35 mins) or KEI (14 mp/tic, +25 wis/int and + 250 to the mana pool that lasts for 150 mins)? It's pretty obvious to me that these two spells greatly enhance our guilds ability to raid. okay well, I had already predicted I'd get torn appart on that last post, and to be totally honest here I'm not overly concerned with this loot policy cause we have yet to raid a place where chanter stuff actually drops. I usually go along knowing I'm not gonna get squat, but just to join in the fun and festivities of being with the rest of the family However, being as SLOT is my EQ family, I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a few concerns, and I'm obviosly the family loudmouth this time around. My question still didn't get answered on the last post for one thing. And now I'm thinking to myself , "self, if you were to win the state lottery tomorrow, would they come take your house or some other valuable item you have before they let you have the money?" Now granted thats cash and we're talking about EQ items here, but ..... Don't get me wrong Nurl, you've given me things that I greatly appreciate and I don't wanna get on your "bad kharma" list really, I don't. And I knew that poll idea wouldn't fly, but hey never hurts to ask. (when I suggested it Synth looked at me and said POLL? This isn't a democracy Reb.) I'm not in any way shape or form trying to P.O. the masses here, so don't get me wrong guys. Like I said, I think to much and I'm just trying to see things from all different angles. Rebma level 56 loudmouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Really messed this post up try the next one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Item's given to the guild bank are treated under part c) If usable by a member of the guild it may be given out, if not if will be sold for pp. The pp in the guild bank isn't just used for raid necessities, it is used to help purchase high level spells and sometimes tradeable gear for our members. Not to stir the pot any further but you did say that if it wasnt useable which to me means its not an upgrade to anyone then it will be sold for high lvl spells or reagents for raids.... So here we are lets try this again.... Why not if its no drop we are able to keep our old equipment to do with as we see fit... if it is tradeable and we want it we have to give up our old equipment? I think that will actually solve the problem...The whole point I think is not having a choice in the matter Oh sure we have a choice we either want the item enough to give up our old stuff or we dont.... What you are doing in essence is going to make Everyone completely dependant on the guild for items and armor and that is bad. To quote Nurl again (sorry not positive how to do more than one quote in a post) Should it be the chanters and Clerics that have to buy their scrolls? YES it should.... Should they have to buy peridots and whatever Reageant that it costs to cast KEI and Aego or Virtue for guild raids and stuff? No they shouldnt but you know what ? Why are we Buying these spells anyway? Why arent we camping the mobs for them? You cant tell me we are not capable of that. I wont believe you. We should plan ahead for these things lets go camp the KEI scroll 3 times. and aego and virtue a couple of times too so that we are set for when our clerics and chanters need these spells. Why should they have to buy them themselves you may ask? Because they are Serious Money Making Spells. Do you think that all the money they make off casting these spells goes into the guild bank? I doubt it. You want to talk about giving back to the guild? Like I have said many times yes KEI costs 30 to 40k I am proud of the fact that Rebma and I have enough plat to buy this ourselves.... Why? because we have worked our butts off saving and selling and upgrading our armor ourselves.....I also agree with Rebma I had a blast on work day not only was it beneficial it was fun... We should do that more often... You want to give guild handouts from that money by all means please do but do not Force me to give up an Item because I am dedicated to the guild by working for it and being there when needed such as raids and events. If I am worthy of receiving a drop from a high lvl mob then I am worthy of it wether I give up my old item or not. I am worthy because of my dedication and reliability. Oh well There are some things that I wouldnt care about. Being forced to give up something to get something is not one of them....I give of myself to the guild without thought of compensation... Anyone asks Synth I need a port bam I leave and go do it or say hey if you can come to me I will TL ya. (thats alot more convenient) Unless of course I am deep in somewhere or I am in a dangerous place that if I left would be detrimental to the party I am in.... Anyway I am just rambling now.. Synthania 51 Wizard Have to do the smiley face thing not trying to be mean or anything just realistic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumblebore Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 This issue was already addressed in another post 2 months ago. Please go back and read what was said then - I think people have forgotten that this issue has already been addressed and it distresses me that we are once again having to go over this. I objected on this basis: Davain wears a Shiny Metallic Robe, which is necessary for his epic (enchanter) - He is my alt. Lets say (it ISN'T going to happen anytime soon) he joins a raid, and a No Drop robe drops and he is awarded it. By the definition of the original post by Nurlaten, Davain MUST turn in the SMR to the guild. /disagree EMPHATICALLY Also, lets say someone did spend a lot of plat to get an upgrade on a BP, only to go on a raid 2 levels later and get a no-drop upgrade. He MUST turn in that BP to guild?? Just because the timing was what it was??? The end result of this going to be decided on whether we are going to be family oriented and firm, or militaristic and inflexible. (EDIT IN) Lets say Mcmikahl loots a new weapon, a better 1hs than he has. One of the things warriors tend to do is carry an assortment of weapons for different effects/situations. Maybe the new weapon doesnt have a proc but all his others do. Does he have to turn in one of his weapons??? This is an example where this loot policy as FIRST stated by Nurlaten gets sticky again. (EDIT OUT) Bottom line - ASK what the person is wearing and ask if they would give that to guild bank and ALLOW them to make a decision - to give is greater than getting. But flexibility MUST be a part of this process. Feeding the guild bank is not as important as losing someone who resents having to give up a hard won or expensively purchased item. BALANCE is needed on this. Be SURE to go back and read the prior posts on this topic before continuing this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 May I make a suggestion please? This needs to go to Members only forum..... This should not be discussed or read by anyone that is not a member of SLoT..... Synthania 51 Wizard Sorry just think this should be a closed forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurlaten Posted May 13, 2003 Author Share Posted May 13, 2003 One thing of importance, nothing you say here will have an impact on any decision i make in the future. As an officer it's my job to do things that benefit the guild as a whole, i will never use personal judgements in deciding guild matters. Also this isn't my personal looting rules, they were originally started by shawdar and i borrowed ideas from other guilds such as elysium's triad, also talked to several guild leaders and their members about what system worked best for them and adapted their ideas into this one. Even though i'm the person promoting them, i don't take anything you say against them personally, i'm just trying to help the guild out and i know that a formal guild looting rules are required for that. Don't worry about pissing me off, i knew this would recieve some opposition, no one wants to give stuff away for free. What's the good of equiping a someone in all the best gear that we get to drop only to have him or her leave the guild (this has happened to slot in the past and this looting system is trying to prevent it from happening again)? State lottery: The problem with your analogy to winning the state lottery is, that you didn't win the state lottery. If you are soloing and get a drop then the guild isn't going to take anything away from you, that's like you winning the lottery. If you and 2 dozen friends all went in on buying a bunch of tickets (going on a raid) and the one you picked actually won (Uber chanter robe drops), do you get all the money or are you going to split it among all those that put money in (hopefully you had a "looting rules" before hand or things would get ugly)? That's what this system is trying to do, not just have you win the lottery, but have you win and other people also get some nice stuff. And the guild isn't taking your house, it's as if you now buy a massive mansion and because the old house is crap compared to your new one, you give it to a friend or family member. (Although maybe give isn't the best term, since this wasn't intended to be optional) Synth quoting me: You got me with that quote syn, let me rephrase the last thing i said. The MAJOR reason for turning in items is to help the guild as a whole etc etc. The example i used a few days ago with krislor, who got the new sleeves and turned in totemic arms. I sold those arms for 85 pp which went to the guild bank, this kind of money is tiny in comparison to the costs of the scrolls, but every little bit counts. I used that money to buy 8 dots which were used on a previous raid, 8 dots is nothing, daulton uses 4 every time he casts group aego. Two groups buffed on a raid = totemic arms, it's pretty easy to see that stupid spell components cost a ton. Poll: This isn't a true democracy, but if the officers didn't value their members opinions than i wouldn't have posted "please read this and post your thoughts" I would have posted, "These are the rules, deal with them." Like to hear some feedback on just changing it from required to recommended, i really think that's all that needs to be done, i know reb said that she enjoys giving to others, as long as it isn't forced. Would a simple word change eliminate all this controversy? Required ---> recommended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumblebore Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 After my last port let me say this. I have watched Nurlaten take on the chore of putting the guild down in writing, of organizing and coordinating things in such a way as to make me want to Cheer him on. So far, he has done an excellent job of things. My way of doing things was to never step on Eldy’s feet in organizing things, and all my posting of ideas was to hopefully get Eldoran to put his stamp of approval on them so I could go forward, or to nix it. Generally though – he never commented, so I never pursued things. Now Nurlaten is working things out and putting them on “paper” . What I hoped would come about is now coming about and I support Nurlaten and congratulate him on his hard and dedicated work. Several of the last posts I have made are critical, and I regret that, but I do not agree on certain points and am expressing this. I hope you are not taking things personally Nurlaten and Eldy – I want to see us get coordinated and grow, but I hope we retain certain qualities and not sacrifice the wrong things for Uberness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Again I agree Rumble.... (I hate being agreeable all the time) You defenitely get cheers for doing this Nurl and we appreciate you not taking this Personally we are just voicing our opinions... Synthania 51 Wizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebma Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 okay, well I understand its not the same as winning the lottery but I was using an EXAMPLE of the way things look. And as far as if I bought a massive mansion giving my other crappy house away? I'd sell the old house for improvements on the new house! (who ever buys a new house and gives the old one away? I wanna be part of Nurl's family if they do that...) And as far as it being strongly recommended not required: In my old job they used to give warnings and call you into the office to sign a statement saying that you received your warning...it was your"option" to sign this paper, but if you chose not to, you got canned for insubordination. Are we gonna get "tossed out on our arses" if we opt to keep our old stuff? I don't much care here guys....I'd more than likely give my old crap away of my own free will , and I'm tired of beating a dead horse here anyhow. I know nothing I have to say is gonna have any impact, so *shrug* it is what it is and like I always say.....I'm just along for the ride. Rebma level 56 witch in training and yes I do agree that Nurl taking the time to put things down in writing is great, and much appreciated on all our parts but I'm female and oppinionated by nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altarial Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 This is a lot to read and I'm sick and my face hurts... but did anyone mention that maybe the person should ONLY give their current item to the guild bank IF that item was given to them by the guild? This way it is not the person's money that "is going to waste," but is more of an equal trade. So, if a better item drops and the person bought their own current item, they would not have to give it to the bank, but if their current item was given to them by the guild earlier, then that item would have to go back to the bank. I dunno, but maybe something like this could be a compromise or something. Just an idea... ok back to staring blankly at the wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldurian Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 You dont get something for doing nothing. You earn/save pps to get an item that you want. Just because it is a drop on a raid doesnt mean that you should get the loot without giving up anything. If you value your current equipment just keep it, and save up to buy that loot off the market. If its a no Drop that you want and dont wanna give up your 30k Bp, too bad so sad. There are no free lunch here guys, just because its a drop off a guild raid or whatever doesnt mean someone should get it without giving up anything. If you want that situation, then just go camp the drop yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 If its a no Drop that you want and dont wanna give up your 30k Bp, too bad so sad. There are no free lunch here guys, just because its a drop off a guild raid or whatever doesnt mean someone should get it without giving up anything. If you want that situation, then just go camp the drop yourself. From the words of a truely Ruthless leader.... Dang Aldurian you can piss someone off lol Nurlaten was handling it great you had to ruin that..Your wrong about there being no free lunches and my many nights spent helping guildies or being at their beck and call for ports or logging in to a wiped out PoS raid and porting people back up to get rezzed.... Hmmmm no free luches Aldurian? How about the 12 plus hours spent on work day with Rumble and the 4 plus hours on the alternate work day with Mcm when 1 group came up with probably 4k worth of items and plat (4 hours of work that came from) No free lunches? Ports TL's levitates invis's? how about the PR work done when one of our members KS someone? Want me to continue? No free lunches Aldurian? To bad so sad? You have that guild raid without the guild members Aldurian go right ahead you wouldnt get there without them no free lunches? That right there is encouraging everyone to be as greedy as they possibly can. so what you are in essence saying is that every Raid you lead every person that wants to attend should ask UP FRONT whats in it for me? Good luck Aldurian....I am Earning and Saving my way to a nice drop in a guild raid by SUPPORTING it and helping in anyway I can by saying that everything I do and have done for the guild means nothing next to the BP or ROBE or arms that I am wearing is Absurd... I know this was harsh and I asked before to move this to Members only but Man Aldurian that was completely WRONG and I dont mind saying so....I am available for ports and TL's for ANY guild member anytime for free and for any raid that is formed (as long as its not too late at night) THAT entitles me to an upgrade if I happen to be lucky enough to be there for it.... Synthania CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THIS TO MEMBERS ONLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedemon Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I agree 100% with Altarial's post. If the guild gave it to you, then by all means, give it back. That way no one loses. The guild still gets their armor back that was lent out and whoever won the random on a piece of armor they can USE (just making sure no one mistakes me for being greedy again ) gets to start saving for whatever else they may need. Again, like myself and many others have said prior, if the bank needs money than we can have another "work day". And i couldnt agree with Synthania's post more. NO ONE is looking for handouts, the officers said themselves that only people that have put in their time will be considered for drops anyway. And Aldurian, seriously, lets try to keep this civilized from now on. There's no reason to get aggresive cause someone doesnt have the same opinion as you. So a little tact from now on would be appreciated, otherwise, we could all start posting with the same finesse that youve shown thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurlaten Posted May 13, 2003 Author Share Posted May 13, 2003 I appreciate all the support guys, this has been a chore and if i didn't think it would really benefit the guild, i would have abandoned it long ago. I'm still not taking anything personal, i would rather have a system that everyone agrees with than one which i made up. Aldurians post: The best way to promote your idea is to have someone else show a worse alternative. We could do it aldy's way and force you to give your old item to the guild bank, but based on the response from everyone here, it's going to be changed to recommend. And rebma: There will be no reprecussions for choosing not to turn in your item in the form of getting kicked out. "The keeper" MIGHT get passed in the future for someone else that we know will hand down an item. It's the guilds job to equip everyone as well as it can, if you REPEATEDLY decide against helping everyone else out, don't expect as many drops from guild events. So yes if you choose to hold onto the item there will be an effect. It's newton's laws (sorry i'm an engineer, i think in physics), every action causes a reaction. It would defeat the purpose of having people turn items in if others didn't turn theirs in and saw no consequences. (Please note the capital letters, might and repeatedly, if there is a good reason than nothing will happen, if someone has decided 4 times not to help others out, than they won't be considered as much). And people are giving up "something" for the drop, their time and the fact that they are volunteering for the raid prior to knowing they will get the drop. It isn't my desire to make this into an uber raiding guild that sacrifices everything for new drops and killing higher level mobs. This guild is founded on friendship and a family atmosphere. I am trying very hard as i "put to paper" the loot/raid/guild rules around maintaining that atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawdar Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Well looks the same people still complaining about the same thing, And still holding the guild back, Guild officers stand up take control of the guild, To those of you who want to keep your old gear after getting a guild raid upgrade, that is greed plane and simple, the point of being in a guild is for the benefit of all by keeping gear for yourself you are not only greedy you are self motivated and not interested in what you can do for the guild but for what you can do for yourself, I think its really sad to see Sacred legion of tunare still a tier one guild with the current level of its members and the number of guild members on during peak times the guild should be a force to be reconed with, instead the guild is caught in the same loop it was in when I joined the guild a year ago, officer say ok lets work this loot in this manner then 20 people opposed to the idea post and shoot it full of holes, then you all go back to square one, get over the hump, In all uber guilds you turn over old gear to officers of the guild if it is not no drop gear that has been replaced, the old gear is then given to another guild member that the officers feel is worthy of the upgrade, Basicly the officers need to say this is how its going to be form X point on, and those are the rules, not a big open debate about the whole thing, the officer are there to help the guild as a whole move up and on, the guild as a whole needs to learn that Eldoran choose those people to help him lead HIS guild, and that when they post a new set of rules the guild members take them to heart, not post about how this and that is going to effect there personal piggy bank, the truth is you dont need to buy your gear if you are in a guild that works as a whole, the only money you truely need is to buy food and drink, Also on a side Note all uber guilds assist the upper end guild members with spells, a guild can make 40k a week easy with guild bank and merchent, Any how this is my 2cp Shawdar Silverfyre 65 Shm of Formidable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldurian Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 My post was in context on looting on raids, not porting and all that blah blah blah, if you are going to trash my post stay within context please. I think you might have misunderstood, when i was talking about no free lunches.. I am saying that you dont get free loot period. If you want SMR for example, you a) camp it yourself b) buy it from the pps that you earned. You dont get that SMR passed to you just because you want/ need it. Hence no Free lunch! This discussion was kind of pointless to begin with because this policy has been around for awhile now. At least we got some posts going on the messageboard. P.S. You can flame me all you want as I dont play this game with my heart on my sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthania Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 LOL I have an inspection today I wont be posting too much..... I will however catch up later LOL Especially in regards to Shawdars post... Synthania 51 Wizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurlaten Posted May 14, 2003 Author Share Posted May 14, 2003 In all uber guilds you turn over old gear to officers of the guild if it isnot no drop gear that has been replaced, the old gear is then given to another guild member that the officers feel is worthy of the upgrade, I will answer a quote with a quote. It isn't my desire to make this into an uber raiding guild that sacrifices everything for new drops and killing higher level mobs. This guild is founded on friendship and a family atmosphere. I am trying very hard as i "put to paper" the loot/raid/guild rules around maintaining that atmosphere. It seems this topic is basically dead now (atleast i hope so) and after all the complaining, the rules will remain exactly the same. For one reason, in the original version of the loot rules it stated: You must then (except some circumstances which will be dealt with when they arise) give your previous item to the guild bank There is nothing that has been said that can't be dealt with when it happens, so these are the new rules, effective on all guild raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altarial Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 This topic should be closed from further discussion. These rules are how it is, there shouldn't be any discussion unless problems arise ONCE it is actually enacted in the game. I love my current armor as well, but if a better item dropped, I'd give my current one over in no time. But the thing is, once you get to a certain point, then there isn't anything better. Many people are complaining about turning in their really great armor, but what are the chances that something better will drop anyway? I've seen way too many people too concerned over money in this game. Sure money helps you get great items, but once we gain access to Tier 2 planes, then most of the great items will be no drop items, rather than items to be bought in bazaar. I would love to get better items than I currently have, and even though I'm very proud for the great items I currently have, I would love to know that I gave one of my uber items to a guildmate who needed it much more than I ever did. And I understand where Aldurian was coming from. I guess I just know him a little better and am used to his sudden outbursts Happy Birthday! But he made us think, which is good and pretty much said what needs to be said, although without any sugercoating This topic has worked everyone up and it's good that people care about what happens to the guild, but with certain topics, such as the Loot Policy, then it is up to the officers to discuss it and then post the finished product so that everyone can see it. Perhaps we should have kept the topic in the Leader's Forum a little longer, but we gotta learn somehow. It's impossible to make everyone happy, especially in a group of so many ages and backgrounds. If we ever wish to grow into a tier guild, then we all need to put more stock into our officers and let them lead us. We don't do anything with the purpose of offending anyone, but with the guild's interest as a whole in mind. Well I am spending more time writting this essay than the one I actually need to write for class, but I just felt the need to make a comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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