Looting

[Rumblebore]

First of all:

Slot is founded on friendship and family, greed and personal advancement don't factor in.

Then why play the game at all, if "Personal Advancement (aka= leveling) does not factor in?

Bad argument there young man.

But now to the meat of the topic:

Ok - the loot rules are in place.

And because I take the stand that I do, I should not expect to get any drops, even ones that Only paladins can use, assuming there is only 1 paladin on the raid.

Nurlaten, you have gone too far.

Is it GREEDY to say that I have a personal ethic that helps other people on raids, defers accepting drops or rolling on items that others can benefit instead of me, give freely to guildies VERY nice items, give away my stuff and not charge others guildies for it, give to Eldoran several items for HIS friend instead of selling them off as they were actually on my mule to sell at the time I gave them to him?

If so, God help all of us.

Is it greedy to go on a raid, roll randomly on a class specific item to get an improvement to ones kit, and refuse to turn over to the guild the item I spent blood, sweat, tears, XP, plat on to get?

THAT is how you define greed??

Don't expect any drops rumble. Plain and simple. If you don't want to help the guild, it won't help you. You can give me examples of how you have bent over backwards for slot and all i'll do is say "yes, but you are still being greedy now."

HELPING the guild is MORE than a RAID environment Nurlaten. I believe I can safely say that I have helped this guild a lot and asked VERY little in return. When I go on raids, any loot I get I always run by Eldoran and ask how he wants me to allocate it, I ask him when someone says in a tell "Can I have those words", etc. I ALWAYS get clearance from the leader before I do whatever with it.

So, if "helping' my guild on a "raid" means I only attend to help others get drops and to never expect to get anything for myself, then no problem - I already posses that mentality - I always try to put others first - it is a lifestyle for me.

But to make it a rule I have to live with is legalism. Not freedom of choice. I choose to help and support my guild and have done so the entire time I have been here.

So, having said all that, I will now abide by these new rules. I will never accept any loot item on a raid, I will never be a looter anymore, I will never talk about how that item would be nice for my (alt), I will just be there to help and support my guild as I always have and show you what the true meaning of Supporting your guild on a raid is all about. Without being "greedy" and accepting ANY loot.

SIR!

/salute

[Eldoran Nobleheart]

Rumblebore i have noticed lately that you are taking things very personally and I read Nurlatens post at least three times and did not feel that that was offending at all. I do not feel that Nurlaten has been out of line at all! im sure that this will also inflame ya but these are the loot policys end of subject.

[Rumblebore]

Eldy,

I have intentionally contended with this subject because I believe it should remain a personal choice, not be made a required behaviour and attitude. As an officer, I am not here to be a yes man to all that happens, I am here to help shape the guild and help it form and become something better.

But to say that I am being GREEDY because I wil not turn over to the guild items that I have worked hard to get or spent thousands of plat to obtain??? THAT IS a personal attack. Itis not greedy to retain what I worked hard for.

Lets step into real life a sec.

Lets say I am part of a team sports, like softball. We play several seasons, and I become one of the main players, and I have gone out and bought equipment to help me be a better player, like a nice glove and knee pads, shoes, cup, etc. And lets say that part of the next seasons games wil provide those who get into the playoffs better equipment. But as a rule of that winning new and better equipment, I have to turn in all my old to the league so they can distribute to those in need or as they see fit.

Well, my plans for my kit was to donate to my own person charities that I actively participate in. Now I have a quandry. The stuff CLEARLY is my personal property. Nothing greedy about that. And I intend to give to charity as a natural part of who I am, of that which I own, so I am not being selfish there. But because I choose to give my stuff to the charities of my choice rather than to the league, I have the Head of the League calling me greedy?? That I cannot get the new equipment because I want to give my own personal property to another charity is being GREEDY??

That is wrong.

That is NOT Greediness.

And Nurlaten calling me greedy is a personal attack. I didn't want it to get this far, but by God I am not gonna let him call ME greedy for wanting to dispose of my own personal property in my own personal fashion, especially since I am established as a donating and supportive person in this guild.

Frankly, I believe an apology for that one infraction is in order. Not for making the rule and sticking by it, but for daring to call me greedy for having an ethic and standing by it. I will abide by this rule - I have no problem with it and understand fully the consequences. I accept them.

I will not accept being called greedy for it.

[Synthania]

ooppss

[Synthania]

/agree Rumblebore. I know I am outspoken but I think it is part of what makes me a desirable member. in RL my home office likes me because I am Not a "Yes" man. I will always do what I am told and do it with a smile on my face but you better believe behind the scenes (to upper management) I am speaking my mind. You will ALL always receive support from me to the ranks (which is why I so wanted this topic moved elsewhere) this was never a topic that should have been in the discussion forum and the minute it got involved it should have been moved here. We need to make this a Policy yall seriously. We will never all agree on something but we need to be united for our members. We owe them that. I understand that this is for raids only and honestly I am disagreeing as a matter of beliefs because I myself am by nature a giver. sorry off track this post was about Rumble, Nurlaten WE SUPPORT YOU!!! Eldoran I know your not too active in posting and when you do we know its serious.... However I read Nurls post again and again and I am sorry but I also feel Nurlatens post was out of line towards Rumble.... He is the least greedy person I know... I dont always agree with him either but when it comes to giving wow man you go. I am not wearing my heart on my sleeve for this topic I know its dead but he did say Rumble was greedy and I disagree (am I spelling that correctly?) with that. We are NOT arguing the policy it is set we know this I also like the phrase "end of story" WE are SUPPORTING the policy.

Synthania

Shutting up now

[Altarial]

I dunno, but all of this should have been discussed BEFORE Nurlaten posted the policy for everyone to see. If people had given more feedback sooner, then maybe we all could have had more of a say in it. However, we have been without a stable, set-in-stone loot policy since I've been in the guild and Nurl was the one who took the initiative and took the time to make on. Anyone else could have done the same, but no one did. The important thing is that Eldy backs this policy, which is all that matters. He is our leader and has the final say. Nurl took a lot of his personal time to create this policy, and so when people say they won't follow it, of course he will get offended. Maybe what he said was harsh, but I think it is justified. In the end it comes down to Eldoran, though, and if he had a problem with it then I could see reason to complain. We need to be unified under Eldoran in this and support his decision to back this policy. It's just a game, not real life money. I don't see giving up a 13k BP, which i currently have and for which I worked my tail off, a problem at all if something better drops, since it will benefit a guildmate, who may not be able to come up with 13k or whatever the current price is. Everyone takes their items seriously, and I admit, I'd be sad to see that money go, but then I'd have the new item to replace it for free and also be a nice upgrade. I'm having trouble expressing how I really feel about this and am just rambling now, but I just don't want to see the fighting anymore, especially among the officers. We need to work together and help each other, not turn against one another. I guess that's easier said than done, since people take this game more seriously than others, but I know I'd love to give Nada my BP if something better dropped, just to see her upgraded and happy for getting such a nice present. Ok, well I'm done for now. I hope I made some kind of sense.

[Rumblebore]

Altarial

It WAS discussed before, elsewhere. And you make great sense.

And I hope that people understand – I SUPPORT the policy – I accept it as submitted, I will abide by the rule. I praise Nurlaten for all his hard work.

I will not avail myself of any looting on Raids however, so that I never have to be made to give up what I have to the guild without my free will decision to do so.

In time, my kit will fall behind others and I know it, so by that time I will have had to find other means to get better equipment, like groupings, tradeskills and quests, etc. That is part of the consequences of holding the position I do. That is fine by me. I hope others can see that and accept it.

But the issue of how Nurl treated me by calling me greedy is laughable and rude, and I require an apology.

I am posting this in Leaders to keep this issue from blowing up into something nasty in the guild – this is a situation that could break the guild a bit and I am handling it here where we can control that part of the issue, and discuss like adults.

People don’t have to agree on everything, in order to function. My boss wants me to lie on calls and to misrepresent who we are in some cases, in specific circumstances. Yet he requires me to be honest and up front about all other things we do. And that is company policy - Honesty. I told him either honesty is my personal work ethic as well as my business work ethic or else it is neither. I cannot be an honest person and lie to customers and vendors – Honesty is a lifestyle. He hates me for it and we go around about it many times, but he respects the fact that I maintain such an integrity on this subject too. We disagree on this issue, but we work well together despite it.

I hope we can still work together with this understanding too.

[Nurlaten]

I originally read this this morning almost immediatly after it was written, wrote a, i think i'll just call it mean, response. Decided to delete it, for the same reasons that rumble posted, it would have gotten ugly and that isn't my goal.

First off, I never called you as a person, rumble, greedy. You are one of the most selfless people in the guild. I don't know too many other people that are willing to log on an alt just to do a transfer for someone and that's just a small example of the kindness you have shown.

What i said, and what i'll stand behind, is your stance on the loot policy as being greedy. Maybe it isn't the best word, but if you want to come up with a better term, be my guest. (I'm not an english major, i'm an engineer, my grasp on subtleties of the english language isn't the greatest, so maybe i chose the wrong word to describe my beliefs)

Someone smarter than i once said "There are two ways to make people follow you, one is to make them love you, the other is to make them fear and respect you." Sometimes being harsh is the only way to get your point across when it needs to be made.

Every action I make has the thought of is it best for the guild, and I know that I'm going to piss some people off. I have in the past, and i will in the future. What's best for me might not be what's best for rumble, but as long as we agree that both of us are looking towards what is best for slot, than i have no problems.

I will apoligize for upsetting you, but realize that it needed to be said.

[Hinil]

Okay people once again for my 2 cents, so everyone just shut the hell up *wink*

for situations like Rumble/Rebma/Synth/etc/etc, by this I mean KNOWN givers, since it is already known that they are doing a lot and giving a lot they should truely be held exempt from the policy because they will do what they feel is best over all for the situation. As stated they would be an acception because they are ppl that do whatever they can to help others in the guild. People that are not known giver would still be required to follow loot policy

I understand that it is policy, BLAH BLAH BLAH, and I understand the ethic, again BLAH BLAH BLAH, meet halfway guys, if an item drops that one of "exceptions" wished to have, ask whether or not there is something dire or someone they have in mind for the item that is being replaced, if there is let them use it for that purpose. As to you "exceptions" if you have nothing immennent for an item then let the guildbank hold onto to either improve another guildiee or possible sale depending on item. If something comes up let it be known here and a decision can be made

ANYWAY, once again my 2 cents, gonna actually try to log on this time

Hinil, 54th shaman

[Altarial]

I think everyone should follow the policy Hinil. I give things over to the guild also, but I don't want to be exempt. A lot of people do great things for the guild, are we going to excempt everyone? If the policy is a policy, it should be enacted for EVERYONE in the guild, unless for the certain circumstances that Nurl already pointed out.

[Synthania]

Wow Hinil I appreciated that tremendously...... As most people say it is the thought that counts and I think that you may have even hit the nail on the head when it comes to a GREAT Idea. It might even solve Rumble's Conundrum....(maybe?) Why dont when a drop occurs and we ask the person to give up that item we then in turn Ask THEM what they would like to see done with it? I mean I am not saying we would always have to do what that person suggests but I bet Half the time it would be what we were going to do anyway, I am sorry I know the policy is the policy and thats fine I dont see many wizzie drops anyway And the only thing on me borrowed right now is my arm slot and leg slot...the rest is personal gear...I must applaud you hinil a most excellent suggestion even though I dont think Anyone should be exempt either but lets get their Opinion on what should be done....

Synthania

[Hinil]

I am just trying to find a happy median so that it works out for everyone in the long run, by exceptions, person making suggestion or whatever it dont matter to me really since I have always followed similar policy, if the gear that I have upgraded can help someone in guild I give it to them no questions and let them know to return it when they done so I can find someone else who needs.

The only thing I do with it if not needed is work is sell it for tradeskill supplies lol

[Rumblebore]

Thank you Hinil;

I have thought about findind a middle road on this and Nurlaten HAS stated there can be exemptions. I am like Altariel in that (for me - as an officer trying to set the example and show support for the guild and it's policies) I dont want to be treated as an exception. I want to be held to the rules like anyone else. That I dont like this one portion of the overall Loot Rules is clear, but let me give a little more insight.

When I started EQ, a Paladin was all wanted to play. The class suited me, with melee ability, to get in there and mix it up, to heal others and myself, to buff others, to taunt and provide that quick one-shot save called LoH. It took many tries to find a race that worked. Rumble was born. When I joined SLoT, I saw that the guild needed clerics, and at that time I had been looking into Tradeskills for plat making opportunities. Once I saw that many of rumbles smithing abilities would need imbued rubies (that only a Brell Serrilis cleric could imbue) the concept of Brannd was born.

You see, most of the time when I try to improve Rumbles kit, it is with the express intent that what he gets, once he outgrows it or replaces it, will go to Brannd. I really shop for 2 characters. I never needed to say this but it is one of the MAIN reasons I am against this rule. The only way I will turn in an item to GET a better item for Rumblebore (while onj a raid) is if the item I currently possess cannot be used by Brannd or any other character I can think of. But if improving my kit into higher level stuff REQUIRES I turn over my SCHW hand items in order to get "better" Gauntlets, then 2 things happen at once - 1) I lose my one Haste item, slowing me down in combat until I can loot/buy another haste item, and 2) prevents Brannd from getting these to use. The same is also true for Rumbles Boots. He wears Valorium Boots for the AC (mainly) and this is a no-drop item. But in situations where rumble can use some extra mana, like against caster mobs for stuns, I put on Golden Efreeti Boots, a Lore Item. If I were on a raid and boots drop that are better than Valorium, the guild gets nothing because you cannot transfer no-drop items, or will I have to give up the GEB's, despite the fact that they will make an excellent improvement in Brannds kit, with the Wis bonus? What about my DW Helm that gives me free 100hp heals via casting Daring? This is a great down time/mana saver item that pallies use. If a helm drops that I would like, do I have to give up this helm and its beneficial effect? I also use this helm to cast free buffs on newbies to help them out. I would also lose that part and have to cast mana based buffs . No big deal but WHY should I HAVE to be put into this situation?

See what I mean? My situation, which had no real direct bearing to any argument against the rule except to make me a total exception to the rule, makes such a rule totally screw my existing plans, my soloing and newbie help fun-times, and manner of improving my characters up to the point that Rumble may gain, and the guild may gain, but Brannd loses out. No matter how this plays out, either I lose something I have planned use for, or the guild does not gain, or an exception is made and, in my opinion, a bad precedent is set, which will make the rule essentially worthless.

This is ALL about my situation and how I play this game, and how I upgrade my characters, compared to a rule saying that the guild now has the right to demand pieces of my equipment from me, in exchange for getting better pieces of equipment for Rumble.

That is why I play the way I do - to give as much as I can as often as I can. To support people, to help people, to set an example.

This is a game and I am having a lot of fun with it. But this rule intrudes into my space BIG TIME and forces me to do things the way someone else wants me to play, to make improvements to my characters based on someone elses criteria. Essentially, Rumble will not be able to get really nice items that only raids can provide, but will have to rely on working tradeskills, buying crafted items, working quests, and the luck of the draw on groupings, all because I want full control of how I improve my character. I want the choice of who I give old kit items to, not having it mandated who gets it. It isn't as if I keep old stuff around forever, hoarding it up.

As stated before, if this is all that is now left to me so be it. This is my guild and I own it as an officer and player, even if it has an unruly brother in the family I can't stand (the rule, not Nurlaten). Killing off the brother is NOT an option.

I want this issue to drop and pass away. We all know how this has come about and now it needs to end. Lets move on folks.

[Nurlaten]

This topic is dead, as much as i would like to continue the debate with rumble, i know that nothing good is going to come of it. He has accepted the rules and made a personal choice, i doubt there is anything i can say to change his opinion.

Hinil, if we keep making exceptions for a certain people, there is no reason to have the rules at all. Even rumble agrees with me there!!! I have a feeling that once people see the system in action they will be more willing to part with their old armor for something new.

[Hinil]

As stated I was just trying to find a happy median

[mcmichael]

rumble,i respect your decision and appreciate that you will follow policy.i only have one thing to say on this matter....pls don't lay down a blanket refusal on all possible loot in the future....pick and choose what you wish to be considered for looting...i do,there might very well be an item that will fit into what you wish to do...maybe you have an item that isn't cleric usable,i dunno...answers that cover every possible situation are not good...

possibly in the future you may wish to play your cleric more than rumble(hehe,i have heard you say that you are very unhappy with rumble's epic situation).it may also turn out soon that hand me downs to brannd may be drastic upgrades.....

(personal thought to rumble,when you stated that you would never take raid loot,my first thought was wow,HE IS REALLY HURTING HIMSELF and that soon you wouldn't be going on raids at all ....stand by what you believe but keep an open mind,don't close out all options out of stubbornness or a misguided sense of {can't think of the right word,ethics maybe?} i see your problem and no,i don't think policy should be changed to suit it,but what you decide you want from a raid may not affect brannd in the least.....at any rate,i am asking that you don't just refuse the chance at all loot from all raids)

[Rumblebore]

Mcm,

My issue is clearly spelled out.

What may have been missed is my intent. I have always picked and chosen what I would roll on. And I have usually deferred to others and not rolled on stuff that is close to my items where I know that it can help others. I usually only choose stuff to roll on that is a distinct improvement or Pally only items.

But this rule changes things. I do not like the mandatory clause. And I stand against that part ONLY. My personal view is that I am paying for the right to play this game and everything I have paid for or looted fairly or won by random becomes my property to use or distribute or dispose of as I will. My person game-play style is to assist and help and benefit others whenever I can, as often as I can. Call it being benevolent and supportive. Combine that together and you have me.

Now add in a clause that says that as soon as I wish to roll on any item that improves my kit, WHILE ON A RAID, and suddenly my personal property is mandated to become the personal property of the guild, because it is expected to be given up in order to obtain the new item. For me to roll on ANYTHING that improves my kit is to place myself under this rule, now and forever. They call the first time you do that - Precedent.

I refuse to sign on the dotted line that allows anyone that right. I stand against this portion of the rule and will continue to show my stand by refusing to accept any items, even as a ML, so as to remain consistent.

I KNOW the consequences. If that means a pally only no-drop item drops, and I am the only pally, then the thing will either rot or be taken by Eldy and he will turn in at PoK for gems. I don't like that idea anymore than the next person. But I have already signed one contract in this game - Verants - and I refuse to sign away on this dotted line. And that costs me a lot. But I want to retain the rights and freedom I have under Verants contract. This rule restricts that freedom a little more than is desirable for me.

This rule is OK with the rest of you - no problem.

To me it is just one little bit too much. But I can still play the game and make improvements as I go along. And yes - it does hurt me. And someday, If I really want that uber stuff, I will probably have to find other means other than SLoT raids to get them.

I accept the consequences of my decision.

Thank you for your posting Mcm. I have thought this through.

[Synthania]

Rumblebore..... I completely understand and respect your decision. Not only do I respect it I SUPPORT you in your choice not to loot items because you disagree with the policy. (if ever you need a group to accomplish something count me in) I also do not agree with the policy and I know of several others that do not either. ONLY THAT ONE PART. If those people choose to stand forward and take the position that you have then I applaud them also. I also will not loot ON RAIDS....Call it greed if you so wish I know my heart and my intentions are honorable. Rest assured that the guild and its leadership will still have my complete support and dedication but I will not waiver. It is as it is with any form of leadership. We may not agree with EVERY rule or policy but that does not mean that the whole is a bad thing. SLoT is my home and I may not agree with everything that is done but I will support it. it is not misplaced ethics or some superior thinking that makes me decide to stand with you on this Rumblebore it comes from agreeing with your stance, and believing in it with my Heart. I will still attend raids and I will still support anyone and everyone that needs it... This does not affect my belief in the guild or my willingness to help I love this guild. Eldoran, Nurlaten I support you and the time and effort yall expend in this guild. Please do not take this as a stance against you it is not. Your efforts and dedication are to be commended. Anyway, just a letter of support..