Orcs vs Trolls and Tauren -- Limits?

[Kor!]

I was just curious as to what thoughts have been given towards limiting the numbers of Trolls and Tauren in our ranks. When I originally became interested in this clan it was because it was an "Orc" clan. I know the general thought has been to keep the Tauren and Troll numbers low in the clan, but it seems many members are more interested in playing Tauren and Trolls over Orcs.

Although I swore I would only join an "orc-only" clan, I did become impressed with SoC's ideals. I decided that I did not mind 1 or 2 token other Horde races. I am completely against the idea of Orcs allying with undead and I was happy to see that the founders of SoC also were in this mindset. Although my preference would still be to see SoC as an Orc only clan, it seems that many members would disagree with me -- so I won't try to push that idea here

What are the plans to limit the number of non-orcs within the clan? Is there any sort of a quote in mind (ie 1 non-orc for every 20 orcs)? Or a maybe a max number regardless of the clan size (ie 3 Tauren and 3 Trolls max?)

I also think we should be going out of our way to encourage people to roleplay orcs in the clan over the other races (not that I dislike the other races but our name "Skullcrusher ORC Clan" has led me to beleive that we shoud be primarily an orc clan. Non-orcs should not hold superior positions to orcs. Additionally, any non-orc character created for the clan should be deemed "born" into the clan and should ONLY understand the orc language.

Anyways these are just some random thoughts of mine and in sort of a "devils advocate" style -- I like to keep people thinking

What are other members thoughts on this?

[Surek Tharor]

I find this very ovensive, if you say Or a maybe a max number regardless of the clan size (ie 3 Tauren and 3 Trolls max?) then we would have to dismiss 4 tauren members and there will be no more new trolls be able to join this clan.

I know this is an Orc clan but there are 26 orcs and 10 non-orcs (where non-orcs are even two races!)

So i find it dificult to understand what you are saying... ok fact: there will always be more orcs in the clan than any other race, and if there is a tauren playing member who wants to join SoC then Ball and the other leaders of the clan can just tell him to be an orc (only for new members who want to join).

So lets not talk about this any more, if the other non-tauren SoC members will read this they will shure let you know that they dont like it either

Uww and i think I will say it now (no need to make a new tread) im going on holly day to Luxemburg, be back in 7 days (1 week) so by by

Edited May 19, 2004 by Surek Tharor

[Martok]

Kor is correct in his statement that we are a primarily orc clan.

It states clearly on our website that we are an orc clan that accepts a limited number of tauren and trolls into the ranks, while strictly prohibiting the undead. The ideal ratio is 20-25% tauren and trolls compared to 75% orcs.

The clan's stance on the undead is very clear - no way no how.

Our stance regarding our troll and tauren brethren is that we only allow the best of the best into the clan. Those trolls and tauren who join our ranks are placed above all others of their race in our minds, right behind the orcs themselves!!! (quite an honor indeed from the mindset of an orc!!!)

[Kor!]

if the other non-tauren SoC members will read this they will shure let you know that they dont like it either

So they too would not understand why an ORC clan may want to limit the number of outsiders?

Also lets keep things in perspective... you have not created a Tauren yet. I'm not asking you to delete a character. Orcs have shaman too... why couldn't you be an orc shaman?

Here's one of my biggest concerns about allowing exceptions to the rule (ie allowing non-orcs into an orc clan)... soon exceptions become the rule! What do I mean by this? Well in the 3+ years I ran a 100% Roleplaying Orc Clan with 200+ members at its peak, it became a daily occurance for new prospective members to come and try and join with non-standard characters. We had a set naming policy and a set character appearance policy. (ie only one acceptable skin hue and no hair at all). Despite this, we still had orcs showing up with the wrong skin color or with hair. Their excuses were always.. "oh I want to play a half-orc" or "I want to play as a race of dark skinned orcs", etc. Or we had people with totally inappropriate names like "Boobi Likka". These were people who were out for one thing... individuality -- they wanted to be seperate and distinct. They wanted to be the exception to the rule ... maybe in their minds that made them look "cooler"?

The main thing that makes a clan/guild ... and especially a large clan... run smoothly is its members ability to adapt to the rules concerning a clan/guild's structure. If member's can't even stick to those rules, how well are they going to stick to other rules/policies within the clan. If you know there is NO WAY you will have fun playing an orc in an ORC CLAN (and won't even give it a try before you create a non-orc character) then why the heck do you want to be with the clan at all? What is truly your motivation? Is is to be "a unique" individual in the clan that relies on being recognized by your appearance as opposed to your roleplaying skills?

Yes I realize I have come across a little blunt here, but there was nothing in my original message that should have been taken offensively -- at least now I have given you a reason to feel offensive. I'm not trying to tick you off, but I am questioning your motivations... and anyone's motivations when they create a non-orc character for this orc clan. I can only assume that the GM's of the clan will carefully judge people's motivations before they allow entry of their non-orc characters.

On a side note, if you get offended that easily that people don't like you because you are Tauren then you may want to re-think joining a roleplaying clan as from a roleplaying point of view I suspect many orcs will assume Tauren and Trolls are just big, dumb and stupid and will be treated accordingly.

(note: some day I will learn to be brief )

Edited May 19, 2004 by Kor!

[Nokk]

i can see y u would want a limited number trolls and taurens in a orc clan but its not like the clan is going to fall to anarchy because a few people choose to go with a different race and 26 orcs to 10 taurens and trolls this is still a primarliy an orc clan. if we keep the members at these numbers whats the big deal as long as the non-orcs role play just as good as orcs.

-Nokk Rajek

[Kor!]

Actually I think you have made a good point. Most people seem to think 26 orcs to 10 non-orcs is an acceptable ratio. I think its just plain sad. From a roleplaying point of view 26 orcs MIGHT allow 1 non-orc and at the very most 2 non-orcs. Alas it seems my perspective is a bit jaded thought as I come from a history of rp'ing orcs in orc only clans. Aside from becoming non-orc, I see some members constantly ask for special priviledges. That is not something I am used to playing with. but, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it. SoC has a lot of leniancy in its structure -- and its because of that leniancy that will make SoC a fun an enjoyable WoW clan -- but it will not (in my opinion) be a 100% roleplaying clan -- which is what I am looking for.

I apoligize now that I even brought up this subject -- as I am used to a more rigid structure. SoC's leniant structure will attract many players and will ensure continued fun within the game of WoW. Unfortunately I am not a good fit for SoC's structure and see myself being more of a detriment to the clan based on my 100% rp orc background, than a benefit. I'm sure you guys will be having a lot of fun in the future and I wish SoC the best of luck in the future. SoC has some great leaders in the clan and I have enjoyed very much talking with them. I wish you all the best.

Kor

[Martok]

Good luck to you Kor! I am sad to see you go.

As much as we would have liked to have been an orc only guild when we first created the SoC, we do wish to be as inclusive as possible to all who would join our ranks.

We especially need those druids and priests that the orcs can not be!

[Glok'tur]

I'm sorry to see you go aswell, and in hopes you will return to the forums atleast, I will post my opinion on the matter.

You have brought up some very valid points, though I disagree with your ratio. We are indeed primarily an orc clan, and will always be that way. But as Martok mentioned, in WoW we will be missing out on some very necessary classes within the game. Also Tauren and Trolls will be better at some classes that orcs can be, so it will be helpful to have a few of them in those roles aswell.

The cold hard fact of WoW is that we are entering a game that has an EXTREMELY strong history, storyline, and culture. The Blizzard Orcs are *not* Tolkien orcs and they are not any other orc roleplayed out there. Most of the players will be expecting, and attempting to interact with us on the level they are familiar with from Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3, and I am one of those long-time warcraft players and have grown to appreciate the unique variants of each race, compared to their father-figures. So to not be entirely out of place, and therefore rejected even further (since RPers are looked down upon as it is by so many..), it is best if we incorporate as much of the Warcraft Horde and players as possible.

If we were to be a 100% orc clan, not only would we miss out bigtime class-wise and be less-efficient on a clan-wide scale, we would begin to look like the "RP Nazis" that have given role-players a bad name. When it boils down, the truth is you *cannot* limit everyone to just the way you want things done without disappointing others. Nobody likes an RP nazi, not that I am calling you one, but a 100% orc clan with extremely rigid structure is borderline when the game allows for so much more. In whatever game you came from, that may have worked very well. I came from Shadowclan on Catskills, UO where the game did *not* offer much, infact there were only humans which we adapted to "orcs." In a game like wow, a rigid structure in a clan like that simply is not efficient. You must allow your player-base to incorporate as much of the game as they can. Keep in mind that no matter what clan you join in WoW, your continued player-base will be made up of people who have experienced the game in full and will be expecting to implement that which they enjoy, within your clan. So allow for as much as you can.

~Glok'tur

[Kor!]

A very good post Glok'Tor. Based on Warcraft orc history, orcs in WoW would indeed be more tolerable to allying with the other races.

Now.. that said... The one thing I like about an all-orc clan is that you have to only rely on the skills the orcs' possess rather than cringe from their weakness... my comparison would to UO (which is where my orc experience came from -- Catskills and Pacific) would be there SC limited orcs to wearing ringmail / leather armor, limited some weapons and did not allow any mounts. Most people thought SC was insane for doing this. SC handi-capped their members significantly -- no, hugely. But it was these short-comings that appealled to me. It is what really defined the orcish roleplaying experience for me.

To overcome those shortcomings we had to learn new and unqiue tactics. Ahh yes... the good ole krimp

SC became a huge PVP menace to all those that dared come to the fort... yes the humie mages and platemail clad knights -- both mounted on horses -- fell time after time to their handicapped foes.

Guaranteed WoW is a TOTALLY different game from UO... but I look forward to the challenges a 100% orc clan presents. Sure druids and priests would be nice... but so would have mounts in UO but we sufficed well without them. (I guess the first month or two will tell me whether an all-orc clan in WoW will be as fun as it was in UO -- if not then I'm sure I'll be by with my orc to check out how things are going with SoC

[Glok'tur]

I understand exactly what you mean, because the appeal was there for me too. But the differences between how the games are meant to be played is huge, so I personally don't think it's very practical to limit a clan to all orcs in WoW.

Priests and Shaman are the only healing classes, and healing is a *must* in any MMORPG. Shaman heals are not as efficient as priest heals, and orcs do not make near as good of shamans as trolls do. Trolls are also able to be priests. WoW is designed in such a way that trolls are *meant* to be ever-present, as the support structure of any raid or group for the Horde. Orcs and Tauren are designed to be the hard hitters, the tanks. Orcs are basically the average-all of the Horde, as humans are for the alliance. Therefore I think if you remove the specialists from a clan, that clan will meet some big problems on the battle field against an opposing clan, or alliance group that has their support structure full.

I think WoW calls for us RPers to integrate a new and unique structure, adapted to the Warcraft universe. It's easily possible to keep the role-play presently strong, we just must rise to the challenge and expand our role-playing minds. *chuckle* I for one would greatly enjoy a pure-roleplay guild such as SoC, or SC that goes by the warcraft culture and personalities exactly, without restricting this and that. If everyone were to take the game as it is, a role-playing game, and permanently sumerge their characters as seperate entities, formal RP clans and their rigid structure would be unnecessary.

But that's like saying "If only everyone helped one another..." in the real world. So you do your best. I surely wish you great success with finding a 100% orc clan, and making it work. And I invite you to return if you do not, or change your mind. Ultimately we are here to have fun, and enjoy each other within an awesome game.

~Davatar

[Rhoach]

These were people who were out for one thing... individuality -- they wanted to be seperate and distinct.  They wanted to be the exception to the rule ... maybe in their minds that made them look "cooler"?

I couldn't help but comment on this, as this is basically how I think a lot of RPers (including myself) feel. I included this in my application to SoC, and was prepared to accept rejection if it did not fit in with their vision of the guild, but thankfully, they accepted me. I think that it takes a weirdo to RP a weirdo, and a fairly normal person to RP a normal person (or orc, as the case may be). Different people enjoy RPing different things.

That being said, I am definitely guilty of wanting to be the 'exception to the rule.' I'm going to RP a troll rogue who was forced into the role from birth, lived the first ten years or so of his life in a human city, and doesn't end up running into the SoC until he's fairly developed as a being. I tailored his bio to fill a specific need that the leaders of SoC might be interested in. That is, an RP reason to be able to speak the alliance language(s) (albeit poorly). I feel that if the 'exceptions to the rule' make themselves useful and offer something unique to the guild that couldn't otherwise be had, then I don't see much of a problem with it. I do understand your concern for wanting to be in an all orc guild, but your RP reasons and game mechanics reasons don't hold up that well, as Glok'tur has pointed out already.

You seem like a good RPer to me, from what little I have seen of you. I, for one, hope that you'll be back.

-Rhoach

[Surek Tharor]

Im back from holliday and Kor is gone good luck live long and prosper.