Molten Core

[Narsica]

LINKY!!!

Here's a link to our forums again with an excellent overview of MC and a "boss guide" as well as a map of the place. It also includes how to handle the trash mobs there, and I would think that everyone would get a great head jump if they read this.

[Huato]

Dabu for posting this!

[Tuuroh]

great resource. Thanks bunches!

[Huato]

Thier set up for Gehennas is different than what we usually do, but it appears to work.

Now we need to get our butts in there regularly.

[Narsica]

Thier set up for Gehennas is different than what we usually do, but it appears to work. Happy Birthday!

Now we need to get our butts in there regularly.

Yeah that's how we originally did it, though the idea of having one main group again and an extra healer or two move him to the back of the cave and we kill the two adds away from him seemed to work alot better. Also, this will be new to me because, like I said, usually where that rock formation is, where group 3 stands, we had a paladin behind the wall as an out of combat rezzer. But at the same time, we didn't have shaman's ability to self rez so

[Huato]

Aye, and the OOC rezing is a thing of the past...they removed it from boss fights in MC as of 1.9. Once a fight is initiated with a boss everyone in the instance goes into battle...even if they are at the entrance. There is no way to stay out of combat.

This is where Soul stones and Druid's battle res come in handy.

[Waldonnis]

This is where Soul stones and Druid's battle res come in handy.

Having not been in MC more than a few minutes (just to see the sights), I did have a question regarding this point. Does anyone think that the cooldown on the druid combat res would ever be an issue? I'm always so hesitant to use mine because it has rarely saved a wipe (at least in "smaller" settings) and wouldn't mind a few tips on what situations it would be most appropriately used..and on whom in a 20- or 40-person raid setting, especially in light of the changes regarding OOC rezing recently.

[Huato]

Combat rez is very useful for boss encounters in both 20 man and 40 man raids. The cooldown is long yes, but keeping that main tank up or a priest up can mean the difference in taking the boss down or wiping and having to start over from scratch.

It is a gamble either way though.

[Narsica]

Yeah I haven't been in Molten Core since the combat changes in 1.9, so I'm not entirely sure how rezzing someone would work if you're already on an encounter(if they just come back in combat or not). Also, like I said I'm not used to having priests, druids, AND shamans; rather, priests, druids, and paladins, so the whole plan will have to be adjusted accordingly.

[Waldonnis]

Combat rez is very useful for boss encounters in both 20 man and 40 man raids. The cooldown is long yes, but keeping that main tank up or a priest up can mean the difference in taking the boss down or wiping and having to start over from scratch.

It is a gamble either way though.

That's pretty much what I thought as well...MT or one of the primary healers were my first inclinations, but I suppose it's all situational anyway (gear differential between MT and secondary/OT, etc). Guess I'll get a better feel for the situations once I get in there and see what we're up against and how our raids fill out. Hoofie's no healer since I haven't filled out my set of healing gear yet...and generally suck at healing, but I can do some spot/emergency healing, decursing, or help tank adds in bear form if we think the druid rez would be useful. Of course, this comes at the cost of not having Verissi there, but I'm flexible and if we need a furry druid more than a mage, I don't mind swapping over.

Personally, I'm looking forward to learning more about the encounters first-hand. I'm an analytical person by nature and, while the MC bosses don't appear to be nearly as technically challenging as some of the new AQ boss encounters (from what I've read), it's still all new to me and should be fun to "figure out" with the good-natured group of folks that we have. I'm still laughing about Smeddy getting mind-controlled and wiping out most of our initially-5-man Strat run the other night...and Tazzy doing some serious face-melting while MC'ed as well...I'm sure we'll get many more funny moments in MC as well.

Thanks for posting the guide and info, Nars...I found it very informative and the map was the best one that I've seen yet.

[Narsica]

No problem!

And yeah, like you said, it will take just going through the encounters firsthand to actually see how they run. Of course I'd still like if everyone had a little idea, and someone else(whomever's leading) to give an overview before the boss.

[Waldonnis]

I definitely agree about the talk-through prior to the bosses...I especially enjoy them since I always like a memory refresher (since I'm Concussion Man with a bad memory) and it helps set the pace and tone for the upcoming fight.

That being said, let's plan on a final attunement run tomorrow evening (Tuesday) for anyone that hasn't already gotten it done and wants to go to MC this week (Kalrash especially...definitely don't want to leave a darn good priest behind).

Also, we should start talking about "abort" situations and what we're going to do if we can't muster the bigger crowd due to scheduling conflicts...I'd hate to assemble 20 or so folks and just have them walk away without doing anything interesting/fun if we had to abort it (this doesn't apply so much to the trash clearing fun...more for long-term planning when we start doing boss runs). So far, ZG was lightly mentioned, but since some of our guildmates have prior ZG commitments, I was thinking that Onyxia might make a better target. The AC's Ony runs haven't really caught on yet, so we shouldn't run into any overlap that way. Obviously, this means some Warlord's Command chain runs, but I think we can muster some folks to help with that fairly easily (I still would like to see Raeda get her Finkle's, Maube her Dragonrider boots, and Greenbull his shield from Drak).

Thoughts?

I'm looking forward to all of this very much. Our instance runs are so much fun as is, so our MC runs should be even better

[Chrysalia]

Well, I've never been there and cant wait, some of you helped myself and a few others get attuned last week, and I thank you kindly. Good info there Narsica, I need to set aside some time this week to read the whole thing. So about this place, should I just grind for 60? I had hoped to stall out at 59 for a good long while so I could pile on as much honor before hitting 60. But Ive been rethinking that after the abysmal showing in the 50's for alliance. I think id rather get rolled by their A-team once in a while than sitting around waiting for a match.

What's the rest of the 50's crew think?

Edited March 7, 2006 by Chrysalia

[Maube]

Honestly 58 is a must =)

I think Waldy, katak and myself will be leveling to 60 just because there is NO action in 50s bracket. I mean I like winning and everything... but honestly... I dont like games with 7 alliance and 15 horde =p

[Waldonnis]

Agreed. I'll be taking Waldonnis to 60 tonight when I get home (won't take more than 45mins, most likely...rep farming makes it go by quickly) and really haven't seen a reason to stay in 50-59. As Maube said, seeing the Alliance queue for anything in groups larger than 3-5 every few hours (except AV, which I hate) is really dull after the long run that we've enjoyed. I've never really had any rank aspirations...just wanted to play in BGs sometimes and have fun, but it's just not fun to 5-cap AB against 3 Alliance once every two hours...

I digress, though...

[Kaerfiremane]

RE : Combat Rezing. The best thing, imo, to do is to have your raid leader order combat rezzes. That way you can concentrate on healing and not worrying about weather or not you are "wasting" it per se.

If the raidleader, who should be focused on teh encounter as a whole, notices, say, that too many priests are dead, or etc, then they can go on TS "Combat rez XYZ" and someone says "on it" and that way its coordinated.

Also a great trick - if you have 2 dead druids, and a dead priest, and are down healing, you can combat res a druid, who combat resses a druid, who combat resses a priest. Can save a raid.

[Waldonnis]

RE : Combat Rezing. The best thing, imo, to do is to have your raid leader order combat rezzes. That way you can concentrate on healing and not worrying about weather or not you are "wasting" it per se.

If the raidleader, who should be focused on teh encounter as a whole, notices, say, that too many priests are dead, or etc, then they can go on TS "Combat rez XYZ" and someone says "on it" and that way its coordinated.

Also a great trick - if you have 2 dead druids, and a dead priest, and are down healing, you can combat res a druid, who combat resses a druid, who combat resses a priest. Can save a raid.

Well, I probably wouldn't be concentrating on healing too much as my druid...not much I can do with so little mana (total feral), but I think this may be an advantage, actually, since I would theoretically be able to still contribute by tanking adds, adding DPS in OOM situations, and still be able to shift out for the rez/emergency healing until we get another dedicated healer back into the fray. (I'm a terrible raid healer, but enjoy the versatility of the class, so I stick more to feral if at all possible).

I really need to start playing "mix and match" with the gear I have to figure out a nice hybrid combo that would allow me to be more versatile while not also debilitating my use of forms (specifically bear). For "lower" instances, I can stick with my tanking gear, but for raids like MC where I may be needed to fill additional roles during combat, I'd like to be able to have a set of gear put together that allows me to be at least mediocre at those roles. So far, it's looking like a Wildheart/+healing gear mix would probably work best (pretty good armor on it anyway + some rugged kits...should be decent), but am also considering getting a second set of tanking gear (with some +healing pieces), a more well-rounded staff, and enchanting the lot of it for +int/+spi.

Either way, though, Verissi's my main for MC purposes, so this is just more me thinking aloud about the future and tips on being more effective as a feral druid in a raid situation than anything else. From what I can tell so far, some of the newer content (AQ and possibly the expansion) may provide challenges that are more conducive to druids being something other than heal/innervate bots. I'm hoping to help out in that capacity when the time comes, as well as helping in some of the UBRS/Scholo/Strat runs to come (versatility may be very helpful with the reduced caps).

I thank everyone for the input on the combat rez, though...it was very useful for me. I'm looking forward to some fun times on Wednesday and in the times to come!

[Huato]

Thanks for the info Kaer.

I may move Zuato to a Moonkin with the remainder in resto when he gets to 60. I do have a goal of getting the entire Wildheart set for him for the bonuses too...and with 1.10 on the horizon the pieces may end up being more valuable.

The other reason for moving that way is that Hoofie is Feral, and it would serve the group/guild better if I took Zuato in a different direction. I may still spec him down to Innervate though once he hits 60 for the MC runs. Will have to wait and see when I get there, but the Moonkin is sounding better for the extra armor and the extra 3% spell crit for the casters in the group.

[Waldonnis]

I might have gone moonkin myself if two things weren't true: a) I have two casters already and b) Blizzard hasn't done anything to address itemization problems for moonkin. The increased armor is nearly worthless, actually, since you'll mostly be wearing cloth (good luck finding good leather casting gear suited to druids). I've talked with several balance druids over the past few weeks and they all agree: moonkin is fun (really fun), but they may spec out of it until more gear is introduced that make it worthwhile. The aura is wonderful for caster groups, though, and I'm not saying moonkin is worthless by any stretch...just pointing out one big glaring issue that I see. Your only hope is PvP gear and even that is more suited to resto or feral.

I think there may be an opportunity for more feral use in the coming months, so don't plan on branching off unless you really want to (at least that's my opinion). As for innervate...we'll just have to see if we really need it, but every druid I know that has it says it's rarely actually needed. One person that I work with who has a resto druid in a heavy-PvE raiding guild has gone so far as to say that, while it's nice to have, it's becoming too much of a crutch for some of their raids and that tactical adjustments are being made to remove the dependence (they're experimenting with rotating healers out at different intervals than they had before...similar to how they described it in the MC guide that Narsica posted the link to).

I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit...gives me an opportunity to think more about a druid's abilities and where I'd like to take Hoofstomper role-wise. I've got aspirations of eventually tanking something in MC with him for fun, but it's a long-term goal and nothing I'm overly anxious about...more of a wishlist item. I'm also enjoying that we can even have this conversation, since my original druid (Alliance-side...still stuck mid-levels) was getting demands to respec to restoration, and eventually pick up innervate, by guilds that were trying to court me (I never applied to a guild on Alliance-side...they always sent whispers to me trying to recruit druids). If I even mentioned that I intended on staying feral, they would often berate my choice ("useless to a raid" came up a lot). I'm glad that the Horde, especially this group, is much more understanding, open, and flexible.

[Kaerfiremane]

Youre welcome guys Glad to help.

As a Druid, two of the major things you can contribute to a Raid is Combat Rez and Innervate. Due to sloppy (purposeful?) Blizzard code, this is why most raiding Druids are Innervate specced.

Combine this with the fact that all the end game druid sets are healing sets, and you see why many druids get disgruntled with the end game. Feral druids really dont have much place in a raid, and neither do Moonkins, unfortunately. Anyone who can heal, does heal. And innervate can be a lifesaver during long encounters. Even more of a fact once you start in BWL...(the ebonroc fight lasts from 20-40 minutes of pure combat).

[Waldonnis]

Youre welcome guys Glad to help.

As a Druid, two of the major things you can contribute to a Raid is Combat Rez and Innervate. Due to sloppy (purposeful?) Blizzard code, this is why most raiding Druids are Innervate specced.

Combine this with the fact that all the end game druid sets are healing sets, and you see why many druids get disgruntled with the end game. Feral druids really dont have much place in a raid, and neither do Moonkins, unfortunately. Anyone who can heal, does heal. And innervate can be a lifesaver during long encounters. Even more of a fact once you start in BWL...(the ebonroc fight lasts from 20-40 minutes of pure combat).

I somewhat disagree with this sentiment, despite not having been into the difficult instances. The end-game gear for druids is changing. Up until a few patches ago, restoration was really the only viable talent tree available, so naturally the gear was oriented towards it (feral was functional, but hardly worthwhile...and balance...we'll leave it at that). Also, Wildheart and even the other classes' sets are all oriented around "yesterday's roles" (prior to class reviews) and the set bonuses still favour traditional roles as originally designed. Newer gear has been phased in for many classes that essentially replace and supercede tier 0, at least and in some cases even Tier 1 and 2 (some blues are superiour for certain talent specs for many classes than the epics offered by sets). As a mage, I personally would rather have a mix of gear than wear the entire Magister set, for instance, since provides me with ridiculous set bonuses that don't benefit me in the slightest in either raiding or PvP. My non-Magister robe alone provides more +dmg than the entire set bonuses combined on Magister, for instance. AQ loot and quest-related Cenarion items seem to be offsetting the gap for many classes, but nobody benefits as much as feral druids do from the AQ introduction. I suspect that the new "0.5" tier will also fill in some of the gaps left by the original tier 0 sets for many classes, including druids that aren't restoration. I'm not totally happy with what I've seen of the Tier 1 and 2 sets either, but they're obviously more "modern" in design than the previous tiers.

As for innervate, I personally don't disagree that it can be useful, but given what I've heard, it's not something that's absolutely required in every end-game raid. There are many strategies and raid class participation "templates" that I've seen posted that are all different, but successful....some don't even include druids at all. This leads me to wonder if innervate really is the end-all-be-all talent requirement that everyone makes it out to be. I'm not doubting anyone's experience that it has made the difference in boss fights for them...I'm more trying to figure out why some raiders say that it's needed while others say that it's not. The only conclusion that I've been able to draw so far is that it's desired during the period when a raid is learning the instance and encounters and lessens in importance once they become more comfortable....still a far cry from "necessary", but does show that it has some value.

Also, I do take issue with the statement that ferals and moonkin don't have much place in a raid. Folks said that druids couldn't MT in MC...it was done. They said that an all-druid raid couldn't defeat Onyxia...it was done. There are some ferals that are in BWL working on tanking the bosses there as well. And moonkin...as a caster, I'd *LOVE* a moonkin in my group. They may not have the DPS of a rogue, warlock, or mage, but that aura really does make a difference for caster damage. Not only that, but they're very well equipped to shift out and heal if needed. They're also vastly superiour from a CC perspective in outdoor instances such as AQ20 than any other class/talent spec out there. Will it be challenging and put some strain on the raid to allow a non-resto druid to try OT or MT? Sure it will! But from what I've seen from this group so far, I don't think it's something that they'd be unwilling to try.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but I see the versatility of non-restoration-only druids as being a benefit rather than a detriment since they can actually fill more than just a healer's role if needed...and are far more hearty should things go awry. Also, in OOM situations, a restoration druid...stands there because they lack the talents to make their forms effective. A feral with the same spells can add DPS in some cases (if it doesn't overstress the healing) while regenerating.

There will always be a place for a restoration druid, no doubt about it, but it's hardly the only talent spec worth considering, given the variety offered by the class itself. Heck, I still hear people saying that fire mages have no place in MC...of course, only non-mages claim this to be true...

I guess my take is: there's more than one way to skin a cat, or in this case, a boss mob...and the game (and gear) continue to change. Unfortunately, player attitudes do not. It's not that most druids are innervate-spec (a misnomer, btw) by choice...it's a "put out or get out" situation from many of their guilds that force them to spec that way if they want to remain guilded or experience that level of content (trust me, I've seen it and others here can attest to the same).

Either way, Hoofstomper will never be an innervate bot, plain and simple. If that locks him out of raids, so be it...I've got a warlock and mage that can go instead and Hoofie can just play around in the 5/10/20-person raids...but I'd rather find a way to include those people and their template choices (that may not have 2-3 60s kicking around) rather than exclude them, even if that means varying from the "tried and true" formulaic strategies. Maybe it's not possible, but it's worth a shot or two.

On a side note, I'm not even considering BWL at this point or what we may need there. We're still working on getting into MC with a mostly Crusher group, so it's kinda pointless to discuss that level of content until we've accomplished this goal. Also, I'm very analytical by nature, so my reponces aren't so much of an argument as they are an exploration...hopefully, they're taken as such

Note to self: typing while tired leads to rambling

[Martok]

Well, Morgh is a moonkin druid, if he ever logs in again.

Hoof being Feral

Zuato being facedown2

I haven't decided whether I want to level up my priest or druid next. Honestly, feral or balance would be the way I go as well, I already have a resto shammy......

[Huato]

I feel your plight Wal...Huato is Elemental/resto because that's what Blizzard forces Shaman into end game unless all I want to do is PVP. I refuse to go down to mana tide because I've been down that road one time and it wasn't really worth it, plus it gimped me everywhere else. In Molten Core I use ranged spells and switch to healing a lot on boss fights when required. Our Baron Geddon strat right now requires me to heal and nothing else at the moment.

That leads me to the other thing that sometimes irritates me with both Druid and Shaman players, and that is they refuse to heal because they have no points in Resto (Shaman are MUCH worse). In my opinion, those players are really not exploring the full potential of the hybrid classes by not healing, or saying they can't heal. I know I am not on the same healing level as a priest, or to a lesser extent a Druid, but as a Shaman I can heal quite well, and have been put on healing duties in some raids. Some bosses in ZG require me to be a primary healer for an off tank, and I don't mind that. It helps that I have some points in resto, but I could do the same job with no points in resto just the same.

I wish people would get out of the mindset of certain classes (hybrids mainly) having to be in certain roles because that's what has worked so far. I can see a Moonkin being very beneficial in a caster group for the crit on spells (this stacks with priests healing too, doesn't it?). The more dps the better as long as you are not pulling aggro from the main tank. I've researched a little on Druid builds and there are guilds that do a lot of MC and BWL bosses with Moonkins. There are some bosses in BWL that you don't dare do this though because a good crit will pull aggro from the MT and wipe the raid, but it's still a viable build.

I can also see a Feral druid being a benefit to a group of melee dps too for the increased chance to crit there too. As far as tanking though, I'm on the fence. Druids obviously have the ability to tank and pull aggro, but I don't think they are a true replacement for a Warrior doing tanking duties. I think they can make excellent off tanks, but not real sure about main tanks on a boss encounter in MC or BWL, or even some bosses in ZG and AQ (20 and 40). I think in any of the 5 to 15 man instances they can probably main tank very well, but for a boss encounter in the end game instances I'm not sure yet (if they can, prove me wrong. I can admit when I am wrong ).

I love the versatility of the Druid no matter what the spec though. It's nice that I can go out and solo or join a party and do multiple roles throughout the entire instance. With Shaman...it's a lot different...we can't off tank worth a crap at 60. We can't out DPS a Rogue or Mage in the end game, we can't outheal priests or druids end game (although we can do rather well). The saving grace for the Shaman is reincarnation and totems, but they are losing their vaibility now with some of the new boss encounters that make people move constantly and out of range of the totems.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Huato

[Waldonnis]

Yeah, shaman get the short-end of the stick as well at 60...all hybrid classes do, really (including paladins, as much as I hate to admit it). And I also agree that refusing to heal at all is just moronic for any hybrid. Sure, the restos can do the job more efficiently in most cases, but it's not like they have a completely different spell book. What I do see, though, is that feral druids benefit more from feral talents while not totally crippling/devaluing their healing abilities, whereas the same cannot be said for restoration talents and feral form effectiveness. On the UBRS run that I brought Hoofie to, I realised that I was too low-level to really help regularly in the DPS department and even my OT ability wasn't great, so I swapped to healing despite not having any of my healing gear on me. A few times, I had to shift to bear to pry a mob off of the priest and then shift back out once someone else got ahold of it and healed the priest. This is something a mage/rogue/warrior couldn't do and probably saved our necks a few times. I just wish more non-healing hybrids would think on their feet like that rather than trying to ignore the fact that they can do other things...maybe the community would realise that not all hybrids are stuck in the "this is my only job" mindset.

The moonkin aura does, in fact, work with healing spells as well, which could be a big benefit. I'm actually hoping they change the moonkin aura a bit, though, since I feel it encourages people to rely more on crits rather than focusing on steady DPS/healing. I'd much rather have it be a +%dmg/heal bonus or something to that effect, which would make them and the aura more desirable to me as a mage. I've never been a balance druid, though, so I would defer to them for better suggestions on how to make them more viable for both raiding and solo play.

As far as druids tanking in MC and beyond...there are videos out there and numerous breakdowns in the forums about druids vs. warriors in the "hate generation" category. I'll see if I can find them again if it's of general interest. I'd much rather have a warrior tanking MC for my own reasons, but I think a feral still has some room to work and flourish with tougher trash pulls or adds. Of course, it takes practice (more than I've had, personally) to be good at the job as well as some pretty hefty gear, but I think the same can be said for any tank role. I think the only thing that warriors definitely have "in spades" on druids is on encounters involving fears, since druids really have no means to counter this (yet...non-passive trinkets will soon be usable in forms).

Barring superiour gear and skill, I doubt druids can out-do the "tradtional role" classes (priest, warrior, rogue), but most of these fights don't appear to me just "raw DPS" fights where more is always better, but rather are more strategic battles. I would think that having a raid participant that can decurse, heal, tank, and DPS even moderately would be somewhat preferable to a one-trick pony class/spec. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Either way, playing warlock, mage, and druid, I'm just seeing the lack of versatility of classes such as mage more glaringly than most probably do. As a mage, I may be the last one standing, but I can't prevent a wipe...only cause one with a string of unlucky crits...and can't do anything at all when OOM other than white wand damage for a long while. As a druid, I can do so much more in the same situations and, as already stated, have the combat rez to help keep things from getting to that point.

I really don't have a "plight" per se...at least not anymore...since I have so much variety at my fingertips. I just feel bad for the countless ferals and balance druids that get shut out of raids because nobody wants to try to fit them in. I'm not saying this is the case here (far from it...this discussion would never be had amongst some of the hard-core raiding guilds, nor would a feral druid even be accepted in some of those guilds), just saying that I'd like to see some creativity and encourage some experimentation with strategies that may leverage the versatility of the group we have and their talent specs. We've already proven that a tankless, priestless, mostly clothies instance run can be done (and done quickly)...I doubt we'll stop pushing the envelope that way when it comes to MC. In all, this is a good group of people and I'm not hurt or angered at all by this discussion since I know that many of us have had to make some pretty hefty compromises in the past and don't want to go through that again if at all possible, or put others in the same position. Sure, I'll probably alter my specs on every toon a bit to help fill in some of the gaps (already have with Verissi), but I'd rather not do things like MC if it means I have to play in a way that I really just don't enjoy at all.

What's kinda funny is that, while we talk about this daunting instance, there are guilds out there than consider MC easy enough to substitute 7-13 totally green people into their raids in whatever gear they happen to have at the time. Their regulars are all very well-geared (much better than we are), but it does put some perspective on things, in my opinion...

Anyway, let's have some fun tonight and I'm looking forward to learning quite a bit

[Maube]

And for those people who whine about not having enough FR gear... just remember... people started from scratch with little to show! If Greens can do it, we can do it! =) We have quite a bit of teamwork down already thanks to BGs. Now we just need to put our plans into action and trudge our dreams to fruition =)