Mages and Sheepage

[Maube]

Well color me an idiot...

never thought of doing a macro to find my sheep again...

Was reading the board and came across this handy macro

"/script TargetLastTarget()"

Perfect for ZG when there is just so much mass confusion!

Just proves what a silly person I am to not think about it =)

Anyway, mage forums has a lot of speculation... but my big thing is...

When Priests were up for review, Eyonix LISTENED to the players and had a running dialog with them. Tseric doesnt seem to really care =/ Of course we are sharing a review with Shamans so they can do the Rogues next and bring the Expansion out ::grumbles::

[Waldonnis]

Hehehe, wish this worked for me, but I switch targets too often...just a bad habit of mine, I guess

Tons of speculation about the review. I'm trying not to read any of it, since it's all baseless conjecture and Tseric's playing the "it's pretty much done, but all of it's subject to get tossed out, so I'm not telling you a thing" card. Tseric translation: I'm 100% positive that the review may or may not be done and changes might or might not have been made...and it's fine, L2P.

[Maube]

Still wish we could have colored sheep

Everytime Tseric Posts... another Mage dies =p

[Huato]

Wait..they are doing Mages AND Shaman on the same review and patch?

Why do I have a bad feeling about this?

For both classes.

[Maube]

Yeah Hu. it is effectively saying, Screw you Both. Well we knew Blizzard hated Mages... so you Shammies are prolly getting a lot more love then us... 'glossing' us over again I would think...

Edited April 25, 2006 by Maube

[Huato]

Eh, I figure we'll be given trivial updates at best. Every other post in the Shaman forum is nerf nerf nerf.

There really are only a few things I'd like to change about the class to be honest...but they may be significant changes that would never happen most likely.

Here's to hoping both of our reviews goes better than we expect!

[Maube]

Hahhahahhahaha You at least have something to Nerf... there are nerf threads all through the mage forum... and we are already so weak... blizzard even changed our class description =

We can summon food and water for our friends!

[Huato]

I've played a mage and loved it...I would have leveled him up further had he not been alliance and switched back to the horde.

I always felt they did well for a cloth class with crowd control, but I didn't level him past 39, so I don't know how they are at end game.

Shaman shine till end game then they drop off significantly. There are so many things that need reworked/changed for end game, and I imagine it is the same thing for mages too.

I just hope both classes get something good out of it finally.

[Maube]

Well most mages I know hold back in the endgame with our damage output...

We have *NO* survivabilty... unless we are the Living Bomb and Ice Spec =p

[Qiris]

Hey I die in one splat and I'm proud of it!

[Waldonnis]

Mage is a mixed bag...very powerful in some respects, but in others we're just...lacking. I lost count of how many mobs are totally immune to crowd control (polymorph, frost nova, and even the snare from frost spells), meaning we have no options at all against them. Also, if we're not touched, we SEEM to do gobs of damage, but don't believe the damage meters...mages are not doing the damage that people think and definitely not as much as we should be doing considering our lack of survivability. For every mage that has the trinkets of doom, I can name 20 that run around with under +50 dmg gear, so not many can do the huge damage that you see in PvP or screenshots (and even most of those are staged *just* to inflate that number for a screenshot). And AoE damage, supposedly our "crown jewel" is pathetic damage-wise and only really useful in solo situations if you invest talent points for the snare. At 990 mana per pop, I expect to do a bit more damage than 150-170/tick (that's after +250dmg gear) since it only takes two ticks before it's interrupted by the one mob that resisted frost nova....

For sustained damage, the kings of ranged damage are hunters now (more steady, uninterruptible dps that scales with stat increases...add in pets, traps that work in more situations than mage CC, and an aggro dump...tada, hunter = the new mage). Also, more experienced raiders are starting to not even include mages if they don't need AoE...at least one raid this past week on AD ended up DE'ing a really nice purple mage weapon because they didn't have any in the raid....that says something. "Glass cannon" is no longer our description...it's now "glass slingshot". And I haven't even brought up warlocks (which are more like iron howitzers than glass cannons).

As for the review and shamans, I get the feeling that we're both going to be screwed by this. If so, I guess I'll level up my hunter like many former mages that I know did....

[Huato]

If we get screwed like that then my Druid will be my main. They just have so much versatility vs. the Shaman, and I can understand why you'd want to roll a hunter if they screw the mages...I was hoping for more hunters for phase 2 of Onyxia last week because of that.

[Narsica]

I used to have a macro on my alliance mage that would inform everyone, be it if I was in raid or group, what I was sheeping, what level it was, and whether it was male or female

But eventually I got rid of it because it created a lot of spam after I was forced to resheep things because people STILL attacked the thing I was sheeping.

As far as the mage review...

I honestly have to say this, and I know I'm going to be hated alot for this , but I think mages are pretty good the way they are. Blizzard addressed the issue of damage scaling for 60's by providing armor with better int/stamina stats and plenty of +damage. Sunday night I had the oppurtunity to play my alliance mage again(I haven't played him since December). I went to MC with the same gear I had back then. It's basically teh best blues I could get from the non-high end instances(MC/BWL/AQ) and certain epics I've come across(two freezing bands for instance and some flarecore gear). We cleared all of MC minus Rags in a few hours, and at the end of the night I was beating their mages equipped in full arcanist's for damage. I came in 3rd overall, behind two epically equipped rogues.(They even had Blackwing's claw or whatnot for daggers from BWL).

If you can just grind the UBRS/DM/Scholo/Strath instances, your gear will be great enough for you just about out dps anyone. The problem with the mage is not the survivability issue, rather the playstyle. Look at the best pvp mages on both allliance and horde side. What do you see? The same cookie-cutter spec. They rely on instant cast spells almost entirely. This is the only gripe I have with the mage class. Sure they can do teh best damage, but that's only if you leave them alone to cast their spells, or if they're spec'd for PoM. They either need to give PoM as a spell rather then a talent or give the mage some other way to cast spells without the interruption we get, and the class should be fine.

[Huato]

Darn you Narsica!

Now I want to roll a mage Hordeside again. Grrr...too many classes I want to play and not enough time. lol

[Chrysalia]

I knew you were up to something Nars, you better not fade out on me man, or I'll come and shave your head when I'm down in Myrtle Beach this summer on vacation.

As far as mages go. There is nothing wrong with having to hold back on damage. That is the reason we die so quickly, risk vs reward. If you could stand there and bust off crit after crit with no danger to die where's the risk? Where's the skill involved in that? Theres a reason that for the most part, I'm one of the last ones standing on wipes. I know to manage my damage output. You dont HAVE to be at the top of the damage meters to be a 'good ' mage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's a reason this is my first 60. Ive played all the classes save 1 (healadin) up to at least the mid 40's, some higher some lower, but this class was the one that became my favorite almost instantly, and it just got better as time went on. Flame me all you want, I'm a happy mage. If you say 'I dont remember what it was like before mages were 'nerfed', though i find it hard to say that 1500 crits on fireball is a 'nerf, I say to you, 'Igonorance is bliss'.

There is no easy way to accomplish your goal, save from allowing people to 'mark' or assign a target, colored sheep is a great idea, or just a different colored targeting ring that would be set at the raid leader level.

[Qiris]

Would LOVE a different colored target ring -- IIRC we had that in EQ and it was GREAT.

Chrys, I agree with you re managing damage output, lots of fun and challenge in mastering that.

[Waldonnis]

I honestly have to say this, and I know I'm going to be hated alot for this , but I think mages are pretty good the way they are. Blizzard addressed the issue of damage scaling for 60's by providing armor with better int/stamina stats and plenty of +damage.

Damage for mages doesn't scale with gear aside from crit, it's a flat additive increase based upon cast time. I hate to be picky, but it's the crux of my issue with damage and the class. Sure, if you're throwing fireballs all day, you think damage gear is working wonderfully, but start looking at the +dmg penalty you take on frostbolts or instants and you'll notice that damage doesn't actually scale at all. Changing the way +dmg is applied to be a percentage of base spell damage rather than upon cast time would pretty much fix core spell damage scaling problems from a gear perspective, in my opinion. Doing so, however, wouldn't fix scaling relative to stat increases, however, which all melee classes enjoy (the +crit per int point is horrid in comparison to how str/agi works for AP/crit for melee).

I came in 3rd overall, behind two epically equipped rogues.(They even had Blackwing's claw or whatnot for daggers from BWL).

I won't even really comment on damage meters, as they are flawed by design. Some are better than others (the ones that synch between multiple players), but they still generally show total damage rather than a situational breakdown. In the absence of AoE, I suspect that you'd be pretty far behind most of the classes that you beat...

The problem with the mage is not the survivability issue, rather the playstyle. Look at the best pvp mages on both allliance and horde side. What do you see? The same cookie-cutter spec. They rely on instant cast spells almost entirely. This is the only gripe I have with the mage class. Sure they can do teh best damage, but that's only if you leave them alone to cast their spells, or if they're spec'd for PoM. They either need to give PoM as a spell rather then a talent or give the mage some other way to cast spells without the interruption we get, and the class should be fine.

The issues with mage survivability go WAY beyond spec and playstyle...they're entangled with gear and downtime as well. I don't care how good the best PvP mages are across servers, they still need to drink, rely on every cooldown being up more often than not, and...let's be honest...most only "own" once per three minutes (after which they run away). This is not so for most other classes, including warlocks, hunters, rogues, warriors.... Also, we're not just talking PvP here, but also in PvE...if I have a frost nova resisted even once, I'm often DEAD in solo situations. Compare that to the other ranged damage dealer classes: hunters can feign or use pets, warlocks can often fear or use talent curses or pets, priests can shield and fear then heal, mages can...blink backwards and get beat to death. I don't care what your playstyle is, find a way for me to recover from 3-4 spells per fight being resisted and I *might* think we're fine...or explain to me why a class that's working well can have four rank 10 frostbolts in a row resisted by a level 5 cow.

Bugs in mage, since we're so "fine":

* Blinking and terrain (acknowledge by Blizzard, solution is to "not blink on questionable terrain")

* Frostbolt is a binary spell due to bugged resist code dealing with the snare, raising the resist rate from 4% base spell resist to over 10% total (acknowledged by Blizzard, solution is +hit and -resist gear...rofl)

* Coldsnap cooldown bug (acknowledged by Blizzard, no workaround)

* Delay in snare processing (not acknowledged by Blizzard, but not lag-related...tested extensively and appears to be related to the double-resist check)

* Apparent bug in resist/crit code against odd-level mobs, resulting in abnormally high resist and/or crit rates (not acknowledged by Blizzard, but appears to be a flaw in the casting system level checks in general)

* Aiming problems with cone of cold (acknowledged somewhat by Blizzard, solution is to "make sure you're not facing away from your enemy"...duh, but that doesn't explain why my cast just went straight down)

Deficiencies:

* More downtime than any other class in the game

* Least likely to live through an "oh crap" moment while solo

* Mana replenishment inherent to the class are lacking (mana gems were great in the "Tier 0 only" world, but...)

* Lackluster (dare I say "really not useful") set bonuses on everything shy of Netherwind. Better gear is obtained in DM and the new loot tables in "lower instances" compared to our tier 0/1 set pieces.

* Ranged class that needs to be in melee range to use critical crowd control then get back out of melee range to cast before the effect breaks (nova, cone of cold..poly could use another five yards)

* "Masters of magic"...that can't even resist magical spells that well or get rid of negative magic effects

* Mana shield is horribly inefficient to be a viable defence, and that's not even commenting on it being used as a preventative measure (since it takes away our ability to fight)...not true of priest shields...

* Melee can resist our damage but we can do nothing against their damage. Warlocks' inherent stamina stat bonuses mitigate this for them quite a bit, priests can shield and heal, mages can...blink backwards and get brained....

* Total immunity to crowd control is entirely too prevalent. I'm ok with some mobs being unable to be polymorphed, but too many are also immune to nova AND the frost spell snares. As I mentioned before, I literally lost count of how many mobs have this total immunity...and I don't even bother fighting them since there's no way that I can win.

* As you mentioned, not all specs are viable from any one perspective. PvP, PvE, high-end instances, etc...each requires certain talent selections or complimentary classes.

* See my notes above for others

[Narsica]

For starters, I will again point out my spec- it's a solo spec, not aoe. What do I do on raids? I spam frostbolt. This is the spec I've chosen, and I picked talents that helped improve my frostbolt's damage, range, casting time, etc.

I liken "damage scaling" like this- the better the gear, the better +damage, the better damage you do. Take a warrior's weapons away, and guess what? He'll hit you for garbage damage. You can't really say this about a mage. They still have base damage that their spells deal, and that damage was increased in ranks as you've progressed in levels. My fireblast crits for over 1000. My frostbolts crit(got a new crit of 2345 last night) for around 2200. I will agree, giving a melee/ranged class better stats improves their damage, whereas you do the same thing for a caster and it basically does squat for us. Sure it's about(I can't remember if it's 70 or 90) 70 int per +1% crit. This is where making your character the way you want comes into play. If I want to be an ignite fire mage with a huge amount of int and +crit gear, then fine. If I want to be like I am and go full +damage rather then any crit, then that's what I do. I think you're being too picky with the class. Sure a rogue/warrior/etc gets more input from their stats(increased dodge, increased crit, damage,etc), but that's where the +damage and crit gear comes in for a caster. Sure blizzard originally goofed with the gear for the casters, but they've fixed it just fine. I can see where maybe factoring in X amount of int = Y amount of +damage, but I really think it's unnecessary with the gear they've given us now.

As far as damage meters, mine was synched with the rest of the raid. I was pretty proud of the damage I dealt, especially conscidering how in several of the fights all I do is spam decursive. A rogue doesn't have to do anything but DPS the entire time. Hell, during the Majordomo fight each mage gets a priest they have to keep sheeped, so you're really not doing any damage then either.

Where PVP is concerned....maybe look into a different spec? I have no problems in pvp, and again(Epeen ahoy!) I'm usually the one up top on killing blows because of my crits on frozen targets, and killing a person even though they had 2000+ health left. When I talk about the pvp mages, again realize that 90% of them are the aoe variety- they really don't rely on the damage trinkets. They rely on blast wave, PoM/Flamestrike, frost nova, cone of cold. Some use Improved Blizzard. Like I said for my mage, I'm the solo variety. The only class I have trouble beating at all is the warlock, and this is thanks ONLY to the stupid seduce that no class has any power over. What do I have in pvp? I have frostbolts that have a % chance of freezing my target in place. I have an ice shield that when I'm struck again has a chance of freezing whomever hit me in place. I have ice barrier, which gives me more health and allows me to cast more spells without being interrupted. I have ice block, which is the immunity all spell(it is THE only spell you can cast in the game when you're feared, seduced, etc). I have cold snap, which brings both my ice barrier, frost nova, and ice block back. I have sheep. Sure you're gonna say "but hey! They regen health!". I don't agree with it either, but still it is the best form of CC in the game. I can cast it repeatedly on a target, I can use it to take out a hunter, I can do the same with a warlock. And blink- we also get a spell on a 30 sec cooldown that allows us to teleport 20 yards away. Breaks stuns, roots, etc. Much <3 to this spell. Sure there's errors with it(when it comes to blinking when you're already close to an area that is seperated, i.e. a tunnel entrance, ramp seperation, etc. But it's still the best get away quick ability in game.

Let's address these "bugs"

Blinking and terrain - as noted above, it's a problem with areas that are "seperated". Solution until they fix it/if they fix it - make sure not to get caught around terrain like this? Sure it sucks to blink and you end up in the same spot, but I think it's something you shouldn't rely on all the time anywho.

Frostbolt resists - I have minimal, if any problems with frostbolt resists. Every spell has a chance to resist. If you're not liking the frostbolt resists, switch to fire? Arcane missles? You have more then one spell

Coldsnap- this is a bug that has an on again/off again fix. One patch it worked fine, but I have noticed once where it didn't reset my cooldowns. Solution- be a quick thinking person and not rely on cooldowns all the time? The mage is a dangerous class to play- but at the same time, the most versatile imho.

Delay in snaring? Meh, I do and don't see it. I see it when you frostbolt something that's already snared- if the snare has a second left, and the frostbolt lands, the snare isn't re-applied. This is a fact; if need be cast another frostbolt, frost nova, blink away. The choice is up to you.

Cone of cold aiming- um...make sure you're not strafing when casting it? Sure there are times when I'm strafe kiting someone, and my cone of cold actually lands on the person that was in front of me but the cone went to my side...just chaulk it up to the gods of fortune. And if you cast it straight ahead, but nothing happens- do something else? adapt?

I will agree here I hate the downtime. Alot of times I will purposely die just so I can come back at half health. I think they're addressing this with the evoc, by not only making it a non-talent spell but also decreasing the cooldown. Kudos!

* Least likely to live through an "oh crap" moment while solo

- eh, again- I'm a solo spec person, so I know how to adjust when something doesn't go my way.

* Mana replenishment inherent to the class are lacking (mana gems were great in the "Tier 0 only" world, but...)

-Mana gems <3 Robes of the Archmage <3 Evocation <3 My own food/water! Buy mana pots? learn to alternate mage armor/frost armor when needed?

* Lackluster (dare I say "really not useful") set bonuses on everything shy of Netherwind. Better gear is obtained in DM and the new loot tables in "lower instances" compared to our tier 0/1 set pieces.

-My mage has gear comprised of things that were made or gear I've farmed. If you're going through this game with the idea that set gear is the best, any player from any class will tell you you're wrong. The good players use a mix and match approach, getting the best of what they want.

* Ranged class that needs to be in melee range to use critical crowd control then get back out of melee range to cast before the effect breaks (nova, cone of cold..poly could use another five yards)

- Use blink? Poly something then simply move to max distance? I dunno what else to tell ya here....

* "Masters of magic"...that can't even resist magical spells that well or get rid of negative magic effects

-Mage armor is your friend. Resists gear/enchants are your friends. Removing magic effects? I agree- but look at the other classes. Druids with curse removal? Priests with magic? It should've been Mage-magic, warlock-curses priest- disease druid - poisons. Meh.

* Mana shield is horribly inefficient to be a viable defence, and that's not even commenting on it being used as a preventative measure (since it takes away our ability to fight)...not true of priest shields...

-Recast the shield? Use frost nova? Again, not sure what to say here

* Melee can resist our damage but we can do nothing against their damage. Warlocks' inherent stamina stat bonuses mitigate this for them quite a bit, priests can shield and heal, mages can...blink backwards and get brained....

and sheep their targets, root them in place, blink away, dot them to death, stun with blast wave, stun with impact?

* Total immunity to crowd control is entirely too prevalent. I'm ok with some mobs being unable to be polymorphed, but too many are also immune to nova AND the frost spell snares. As I mentioned before, I literally lost count of how many mobs have this total immunity...and I don't even bother fighting them since there's no way that I can win.

Only thing I can think of is hunter pets- kill the hunter, bye bye pet. They've toned down beastial mastery alot, and this is a good thing. As far as mobs themselves having immunity- use fire? Arcane missles? Fireblast? Arcane explosion? Kiting is key here

* As you mentioned, not all specs are viable from any one perspective. PvP, PvE, high-end instances, etc...each requires certain talent selections or complimentary classes.

- This is where my spec comes in It's great for pvp, pve- whatever! Give it a try some time ;0

Waldy, this is in no way meant to be a post specifically against you. I'm just addressing the ideas/opinions.

[Chrysalia]

Lol like I said

Ignorance is bliss