Some items from the upcoming patch (Naxxramas)

[Huato]

http://www.wocoi.com/naxx/index.html

Just freaking amazing stuff in there! For fun, look at the list of Frost Resist stuff.

Check out the weapons. There are some weapons in there that do more dps (base) than the two legendary weapons presently available and they are drops...not put together. The staves are incredible, as is the two hand mace. There's one really nifty and really nasty two hand sword there too. I suspect there will more to come for it.

Really looking forward to this! We need to at least give it a shot.

For the clothies, there is a chest piece with 316 armor on it for ya there too

[Grimgor]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Grimgor

[Huato]

That was one of the first things I thought of too. With the number of Alliance guilds that are running BWL and AQ40 now, once they hit Naxx they are going to be rampaging through Horde areas like mad.

Not sure what Blizzard plans to do about that...hopefully they have something in place, but I doubt they will do anything till after the fact.

[muru]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

What happens, Grim? I tell ya!! To quote Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, concerning Blizzard "I tell ya, dem boys ain't dumb..."!! They know addicts like us will quickly renew our subscription fer another month and get crackin' on gettin' that newest uber lewt piece to counter:)

Edited May 26, 2006 by muru

[Waldonnis]

What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

The answer: our side dies...a lot...repeatedly. Unfortunately, the game is gear-centric and just rehashing the same stats won't keep the powergamers around. 2 extra DPS on a new weapon only satisfies people for so long....and Blizzard couldn't seem to satisfy the "casual gamer" so they just redefined the term, apparently (anyone who's tried a 45-min Baron run knows what I mean...and conflag-happy Drakk is sometimes harder than Lucifron or Gehennas now).

Also, introducing new instances means not only shuffling tactics, but requiring more from the participants, which often translates into more damage required and better healing...and thus begins the gear development treadmill. I don't like their approach either, but it seems to be working from a business perspective, so no use turning the game on its head to change it at this stage.

I'm not overly concerned with these items, honestly. The expansion looms in the near future and we'll be seeing stuff that makes this gear as desirable as an Illusionary Rod once the level cap is raised. I do look at the loot and think it would be nice to have, but I doubt that I or my gear is ready for that place anyway...

[Huato]

Very true Waldoniss.

That said, I think most of our regulars to MC are ready for at least the first couple of encounters in BWL and perhaps even AQ 40. I'm not saying we're ready for the entire instance (either), but there is no reason that we could start working on them if we had the time. Look at our progress in MC? A huge portion of that is because our people are geared from the stuff they got at the beginning of the instance.

Huato has 6/8ths of the EF set. Depressing to see one drop while on Zuato, but we also have Morgh with 6/8th of the Cenarion set, and we have a few others that are creeping up there. Tonight I expect we will have Domo down and be giving Ragnaros a shot.

Even though we haven't taken down Rags yet, I believe we are capable of giving the first two to three bosses in BWL a good go. Yes, I realize its a big step up in difficulty, but we have the people to do it.

[Waldonnis]

We could at least try, but I'd prefer to not push too hard towards starting BWL or AQ40 until we're more comfortable in MC. We're within reach of Ragnaros at this point and don't think we need to get him down before attempting BWL/AQ40, but I'd personally prefer to get more people into MC for the experience and to get used to working in a larger raid (for those who haven't yet).

We have many folks who haven't yet been into MC or are nearing 60 still. If we start pushing into BWL more, I'd be worried that MC may fall to the side a bit and they wouldn't have as many opportunities to get in. With many people having RL obligations that limit their raiding time, I'd be concerned about having one or two more raid nights added and even less time to dedicate to our own membership's needs (BRD/BRS runs, etc).

That being said, I wouldn't mind at least trying a few new things on an off night if we can garner the interest...doesn't have to be a regular thing for now. I'm pretty confident as well that we could at least handle the first boss or two in AQ40 or give Razorgore a good go.

[Scryll]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

It's a fundamental problem in this sort of game design, unfortunately. When a game system is set up to be released in an episodic manner, or updated periodically, you face two related problems, which fall under the rubric of "ramping up" power. To some extent, this is due to one particular problem, the urge to introduce something slightly *or more than slightly* more powerful, just because that sort of thing is flashy and neat. That's what generally happens with CCG's like Magic: The Gathering, and systems like D&D, or Palladium. Computer games offer a second problem to that. They offer a lot more capabilities, in most ways, than tabletop systems and other game types, but they suffer from being essentially static. The players can't create their own content, really. The developers can add content, but that ultimately just makes the existing world a bit bigger, it doesn't create whole new worlds. That drastically limits the ability to keep paying players. The only other really strong alternative is to give the characters a sense of advancement, of getting better. And that invariably means a character is getting more powerful.

The need to do that is made even stronger, incidentally, by one of the tactics to make new world content hold attention longer, by making them difficult. Designers don't want players to just blow through new content quickly *they'll promptly start clamoring for more* so new areas often take forms like AQ40 or Naxxramas, which players are going to have to spend a lot of time on to thoroughly explore. You don't want the players to get too frustrated with the new content and leave the game for that reason, though, so you have to A) find ways to make progress "easier" *like getting new, powerful items as they go* and B) make the reward for going through all that frustrating content worth it. So the more difficult you make things, the better of a reward you have to offer in comparison to the power level prior to the new content.

[Relikk]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

I think the weapons should get more powerful than this. I have fought alliance warriors with legendaries and of course, while the outcome is not pretty on a 1vs1 battle, I try and make sure there are friends behind me. Numbers, and coordination of those numbers, is what decides the outcome of a battle. I played WorldWar2 online for 2 years, and it was always numbers that made the difference. If the germans approached with Tiger Tanks (they kill anything with one shot, including the British heavily armored Matilda), we used player strategy to take em out. We had nothing that could assault a Tiger head-on, so we would painstakingly roll a 6lber ATG into a destroyed house or building, then blast it as when it turned to show it's weak sides. Or we used low flying bombers or Thunderbolts to take them out. With 2 or 3 players hitting it, it went down rather quickly. Same as this game, until we catch up. The difference is, this game is red team vs blue team. In WW2 Online, there was no such thing, they had equipment you didn't have.

Rel

[Cwn]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

I think the weapons should get more powerful than this. I have fought alliance warriors with legendaries and of course, while the outcome is not pretty on a 1vs1 battle, I try and make sure there are friends behind me. Numbers, and coordination of those numbers, is what decides the outcome of a battle. I played WorldWar2 online for 2 years, and it was always numbers that made the difference. If the germans approached with Tiger Tanks (they kill anything with one shot, including the British heavily armored Matilda), we used player strategy to take em out. We had nothing that could assault a Tiger head-on, so we would painstakingly roll a 6lber ATG into a destroyed house or building, then blast it as when it turned to show it's weak sides. Or we used low flying bombers or Thunderbolts to take them out. With 2 or 3 players hitting it, it went down rather quickly. Same as this game, until we catch up. The difference is, this game is red team vs blue team. In WW2 Online, there was no such thing, they had equipment you didn't have.

Rel

The 2 or 3 players on one is a good stratgety. Only problem is, we don't have 2 or 3 players for every one of them. They have 2 or 3 for every one of us. What do we do when not only outgunned, but outmanned as well?

[Relikk]

Very nice.

While that gear certainly is exciting, I have to voice a little discontent with it too. How much more powerful do the weapons need to be? Do they have to be twice as powerful as the gear that the casual gamers can wield? What happens when someone wielding these weapons begins rampaging through Orgrimmar with a crack team of PvPers and a guy like me moves to intercept them and answer the call of defense?

I guess I'd just prefer to see the increases in weapon damage as the quality goes up to have a diminishing returns effect, so that the item disparity doesn't make anyone a completely unfair combatant. Because with the way it works, as long as they have more DPS, that's enough for bragging rights. It doesn't have to be 2x what everyone else has to be proud of it.

I think the weapons should get more powerful than this. I have fought alliance warriors with legendaries and of course, while the outcome is not pretty on a 1vs1 battle, I try and make sure there are friends behind me. Numbers, and coordination of those numbers, is what decides the outcome of a battle. I played WorldWar2 online for 2 years, and it was always numbers that made the difference. If the germans approached with Tiger Tanks (they kill anything with one shot, including the British heavily armored Matilda), we used player strategy to take em out. We had nothing that could assault a Tiger head-on, so we would painstakingly roll a 6lber ATG into a destroyed house or building, then blast it as when it turned to show it's weak sides. Or we used low flying bombers or Thunderbolts to take them out. With 2 or 3 players hitting it, it went down rather quickly. Same as this game, until we catch up. The difference is, this game is red team vs blue team. In WW2 Online, there was no such thing, they had equipment you didn't have.

Rel

The 2 or 3 players on one is a good stratgety. Only problem is, we don't have 2 or 3 players for every one of them. They have 2 or 3 for every one of us. What do we do when not only outgunned, but outmanned as well?

I should have mentioned that we were outmanned as well. I remember how they isolated towns. Many times they overran us, but that was the goal of the game.

This game spares us that, and many players don't even want to pvp. If it happens, we will rally and fight and they will lose. =)

Rel

[Odenn]

We have to be careful about heading off to BWL, if we start going after that we will lose some of the people who do not have much stuff from MC.