Just a little MC request

[Wolf]

I'm going to weigh in on one thing with the dkp. Asking folks to pass seems perfectly fine in my opinion. They don't have to pass if they really want that item. They have the dkp, they earned it, they can spend it. Forcing them to pass would definitely be a no no. It also leads to another facet of the dkp system that is in the same vein. If you're looking at potential people to complete their sets because they are "close" and because it will help the raid, then why do we let first-timers roll on contested items, set piece or not? It's always been a curiosity point for me in the grand scheme of things. i.e. you get 4 mages that have been coming week after week and spending dkp as pieces come available. Now, let's say a rare set piece drops and those mages want to roll on it, however they are all negative. But you've got a new mage in the mix on their first run, is it right that with 0 dkp they should get that piece?

I've just always been confused by that. To me, I think it shouldn't be too much to ask from an individual that wishes to participate to at least show up one run before they're allowed to loot pieces unless that piece is uncontested. For all we know that person never shows up again.

Just my 2 cents

[Huato]

What she is getting at is if an individual in your class is one or two pieces away from completing their Tier 1 set, to please pass (at your discretion) on the piece so that the individual may complete their set. The reason being is that most of the Tier 1 sets have very beneficial 8 piece set bonuses that help the raid considerably.

The other thing about MC, BWL, and soon Naxx (although the armor comes from quest there) is that the set pieces are geared for that instance and the beginning of the next. You help yourself and the raid by getting the complete set vs. passing for other items. There are the set bonuses and resistances attached to the Tier 1 and Tier 2 sets that are invaluable. Outside of the Raids itemize however you see fit. In the 40 man runs where this stuff drops in most cases you are going to help the raid be more successful with the set. All casters (druids and shaman included) get mana / 5 on most pieces of the tier 1 set, and it's needed for the longer boss encounters. Some also help with dropping aggro and tanking.

Ultimately it comes down to how you want to spend your dkp, but if you look at it from an overall raid standpoint, and from watching other successful MC/BWL/AQ40 and soon Naxx raid groups, they are all in their Tier 1/2 sets for that particular instance.

Anyhow...that's what she was getting at along with my personal thoughts and observations. Once again, no one is telling you how to spend your dkp, just asking if you know a member of your class is close to completing their set to pass. You don't have to pass, and won't be penalized in any way for not passing.

I'm going to weigh in on one thing with the dkp. Asking folks to pass seems perfectly fine in my opinion. They don't have to pass if they really want that item. They have the dkp, they earned it, they can spend it. Forcing them to pass would definitely be a no no. It also leads to another facet of the dkp system that is in the same vein. If you're looking at potential people to complete their sets because they are "close" and because it will help the raid, then why do we let first-timers roll on contested items, set piece or not? It's always been a curiosity point for me in the grand scheme of things. i.e. you get 4 mages that have been coming week after week and spending dkp as pieces come available. Now, let's say a rare set piece drops and those mages want to roll on it, however they are all negative. But you've got a new mage in the mix on their first run, is it right that with 0 dkp they should get that piece?

I've just always been confused by that. To me, I think it shouldn't be too much to ask from an individual that wishes to participate to at least show up one run before they're allowed to loot pieces unless that piece is uncontested. For all we know that person never shows up again.

Just my 2 cents

That's a good point, and I agree with you. Maybe Maube will come in and clober us or give us a good answer on that!

[Maube]

I guess the reason why we had people who could come in and get something the first time was a throw back to Buttnugget's raid. For those of you who dont know Buttnugget, he ran an MC raid with some rather bizarre and frustrating rules. and he is the reason I ultimately started my own raid.

We want people to come back, but perhaps you are right in the fact that people should run at least once with us before they can bid on an item, UNLESS people all pass on said item. I will put it to a vote tonight and get an idea what the whole raid thinks =)

Remember folks I am ALWAYS open to suggestions and questions =)

I feel bad for the Hunters... they arent Hoarding DKP persay... but rather have had some bad luck getting hunter gear to drop =(

[Alhazad]

Passing is good, if encouraged but not demanded.

I'm of the opinion that if you have comparable gear to what drops and someone else is lacking, it'd be pretty keen to pass to them. Or, if they're near finishing their set, also pass and help them complete Tier1. Especially for long-time raiders. Hopefully this would be reciprocal, but you give to give not to get

Just my take on it.

As for first-timers getting a shot at gear.. this too has puzzled me. You'll have people that have been raiding for weeks if not months, but they happen to be a little in the hole. Something drops, and it is immediately more accessible to a new person than those already long-in-the-tooth. This can and does lead to a lot of snatch-and-grab raiders, folks who get an item and never come back. I believe some guilds, with or without zero sum, forbid you from getting items on your first run. If you come to the next run, you start earning DKP and have a shot at stuff that drops. I guess that's one way it is handled, possibly not the best, but it's out there.

[Cwn]

Well this will be my first run, and I would be a little bit miffed if I was forbidden to roll on something. After all, isn't the raid going to be made up of guild members? It's not like I'm going to grab what I can and disapear.

[Alhazad]

I was just putting it out there as a policy that some raids use when taking on new members, whether they are guilded or not. I'm sure there are lots of ways of dealing with it, or it doesn't have to be dealt with at all... either way it goes, someone is going to be miffed.

[Qiris]

Here's my point of pain -- we have stuff that drops now that no one wants because they already have it. If that happens with a priest item and I've brought Jiris and understand your clarification, I would be using Xiris' DKP to gear up Jiris with an item that would be DE'd if I didn't take it.

Please let me know if I'm interpreting this correctly.

[Alhazad]

I think that's how the DKP sharing works right now, Qiris. Seems like a catch 22 with zero sum, because points have to be spent if items are going to someone (even if nobody else wants it). I think points are even spent if something is DE'd, it just is spent by a DE mule.

Or, I could be waaay wrong

[Houli]

Hehe, this topic needs to go to TS...!

hot thread!

You do have a point Qiris, in your last post there...i think you are interpreting it correctly.

however,

harne right now has a large negative DKP right now...if i had a separate pool of DKP for Haq i would be able to avoid that hole and get some easy epix

And, even if you did have separate DKP pools you would not be earning anything for your main when you were play'n your priest, whereas now you can, you just gotta resist the urge to take the epic for your alt if you are use'n her - maybe you will get lucky and no priest drops will fall

Plus Maubster decided early on it was one DKP pool per account.

This is i suppose one of those occasions where you pick the lesser of two evils...stack up the pros and cons (granted they will vary a lil from person to person) and pick a side... unfortunately for us Muabe is a Dictator ... so we are all screwed, on top of that, i leave for 2 months and while im gone you all put her in charge of the clan! were doomed! doomed i tell you!

ok sorry started to ramble there, i love you maube as much as a friend can without it being weird

*hides from katak*

Edited June 14, 2006 by Houli

[Qiris]

Actually I think this is the perfect place to talk this through so everybody's questions can be addressed and we are all clear on what's what Yup it's a game--however, I've seen guilds and alliances torn apart by questions like this that weren't talked about openly.

[Houli]

hehe oops , i didnt mean to send the stupid line "its just a game"

edited it out

and im glad its on the forums too, cuz i cant join in on TS atm!

Edited June 14, 2006 by Houli

[Cwn]

Hey Xiris, you may not have to worry. Fomor is coming, and you can just force him to take all the priest drops. Problem solved!

[Maube]

This is something I am glad everyone is talking about openly =)

::shoves Houli back in his box and sits on it::

As it stands right now, the only thing that a person coming into the raid can bid on is a piece of their set gear, aka Tier 1. Weapons/Trinkets/Rare pretty sparkly thingies are off limits until you have established your DKP.

I have had people complain about this however, in the majority of cases (except druids because they are always - DKP) a first timer doesnt get a chance on an item ANYWAY.

Maybe we could institute a half price rule if say Gloves of Prophecy Dropped and you wanted them for Jiris?

Say Everyone passed on them, and instead of DEing, they are offered up for 1/2 price for alts? We would get less DKP but it wouldnt completely kill your main DKP pool?

[Qiris]

Lest I be entirely misunderstood, the whole reason I'm bringing this stuff up now, here and out in the open is I have seen entire guilds explode over this sort of stuff because folks wouldn't talk about it ahead of time. Far better for everyone who ever attends a raid to know what's what -- no chance for misunderstanding and IMO being open and above board in how we handle stuff like this shows we have honor.

So really how we do it is almost less important to me than that we talk it through and have clear consistent policies set up.

Tonight doesn't affect me either way, Cwn, I can't come since I will be torturing myself and learning how to rumba (no laughing you guys). I just want to know how we will handle this since it's pretty clear it'll come up again and again whenever we are short of a needed class.

That's just how raiding works--some weeks you have druids coming out your eyeballs and other weeks there's no moonkin to be found for love or money or DKP.

[Alhazad]

My -1 DKP is killing me. The day I see 8/8 Might is the day Tanaris freezes over.

But anyway... it's good to talk about this stuff, I agree. I was in a raid last night and they were actually discussing DKP prices during the raid, after a boss fight. It wasn't the best time to adjust prices on items and it slowed the raid down a little, and some people mentioned that. There were repeated cries of "take it to the forums!" which were for a while ignored

[Qiris]

Quick off topic to say Alhazad, I love your sense of humor when we raid -- you can ask Tainish, I really appreciate your humor and attitude.

[Maube]

Definitely agree with you there Xiris =) Al is the Happy Fun Rock admist all the mean nasty rocky guys

As it stands, I am really trying to recruit more healers so you and I DONT have to bring our priests =) I dont really have a need to gear Tazzy out right now as Maube is my main.

What did you think about the 1/2 price option Xiris?

[Tainish]

Quick off topic to say Alhazad, I love your sense of humor when we raid -- you can ask Tainish, I really appreciate your humor and attitude.

It's true. In fact, I think she may have called out your name last night in her sleep.

Either that or she sneezed.

Actually I'm quite certain that it was a sneeze.

PS: It was me that called out your name.

[Qiris]

Do you SEE what a goofball I married?

Maube -- seriously I mostly wanted to know what our policy was going to be -- however you want to do it is fine, just wanted to KNOW, eh?

[Maube]

Hehe THe policy is DKP per PLAYER but still curious as to thoughts about 1/2 price upgrades for alts =) (if no mains want them)

Upgrading policies and making them more viable are out there! I am always open to suggestions

[Huato]

Ok, here is a question I have been wondering about...say a boe piece drops (bracers and belts are the only boe pieces in there), and everyone passes. What if we have an alt that can use it? Can we use DKP for our alt if everone else passes on it?

This really doesn't pertain to Huato since he has all the BoE EF pieces. Zu doesn't yet though.

And I forget the reasoning for this, but why are the boots and gloves (which are BoP) 75 dkp like the boe pieces are?

[Maube]

heh I dont remember my original reasoning for the prices being what they are =p

And yes, right now BoEs go into the raid bank (remind me to update it =p )

First priority goes to those IN the Core, Second Priority goes to Alts, Third the item goes into the raid bank to either be offered for DKP to a new raider OR gets sold to fund the raid (I have spent 832g on this raid since the start from my personal funds... so no one ###### to me about reagent costs And that is NOT including personal consumable costs or repairs =) )

[Huato]

Damn! That's alot of gold spent!

I bring my reagents so you can't yell at me!

[Scryll]

Hehe THe policy is DKP per PLAYER but still curious as to thoughts about 1/2 price upgrades for alts =) (if no mains want them)

Upgrading policies and making them more viable are out there! I am always open to suggestions

Honestly, Maube, I don't much like the 1/2 price thing for alts, even when they're alts that we've requested the player bring *and yeah, I know, easy for me to say, my highest horde alt just hit 30* I don't see much to recommend tracking DKP by account over tracking by character or vice versa, the pros and cons for each seem to be fairly equal, but I think we really need to do one or the other. Compromising between them will buy us the worst of both.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Scryll

[Fomor]

As it stands, I am really trying to recruit more healers so you and I DONT have to bring our priests =) I dont really have a need to gear Tazzy out right now as Maube is my main.

Give me time and this won't be an issue. After watching tonight I can seriously say that with a couple priests and some other dedicated healing classes all coordinating well, this should not be a problem. Like I said last night, I can pretty much guarantee my being there on Wednesdays and most of Fridays... so you will have at least one priest around regularly... assuming I don't suck.

Hehe THe policy is DKP per PLAYER but still curious as to thoughts about 1/2 price upgrades for alts =) (if no mains want them)

Upgrading policies and making them more viable are out there! I am always open to suggestions

Personally I still have no idea how this arcane system works, but as long as I get my gear I am cool. I have to ask though, if no one is a priest that needs an item that drops and I do, can I bid just 1 DKP for it? Just curious.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Fomor