Druids, Innervate and healing shaman

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

This is mainly directed to the people I raid with in WWBBQ, but I was interested in seeing the response I would get here. From my point-of-view, this makes perfect sense to me, but I might just be biased. What do you think?

In 1.11 Shaman and Druids both saw changes that should make end-game raiding more interesting, certainly more balanced in the healing department compared to the healadin advantage the Alliance has. I respec'd from an Enhancement/Elemental (Stormstrike) build to a more healing oriented Restoration / Elemental build (16/5/30) on my Shaman for raid healing support. Last night was a blast for me - I stood at the side of Ony's head with a Tremor Totem, a Tranquil Air Totem and a Mana Spring Totem and spam healed the tanks. I very, very briefly caught aggro when my TA Totem died, but it was only for a second - I didnt even have time to move before Feoler took it back (and I got another one down). There was no way I could have done this pre-patch - Ony would have taken offense.
I'm cranking out lesser healing waves that hit for no less than 1300 points with all my +healing (currently sitting at +314, but gonna go up again tonight!) and healing waves that hit for a minimum of 2k...all pre-crit (I had a crit last night for a crit for over 3k - followed by a Nature's Swiftness Healing wave for 2.4k - it was sweet to see the warrior go from "Oh, ###### - gonna die..." to "Wait...nope, Jero saved me!" :wink: ). I don't do the heal at full health like Xiors stated in raid chat last night (that's bull######). Allentrace and Kawisima have both been with me when I am on healing duty and know that I wait to heal until it's needed. Not that it matters, but this is how I choose my heals:

• 50-75% Health = Lesser Healing Wave(s - as needed)
  
• 30-50% = Healing and Lesser Healing
  
• < 30% = Nature's Swiftness + Healing Wave + consecutive Heals
  
• 75-80% and it's a non-boss fight, and DPS has been called on = Chain Heal
  

Anyways, the point of the post...should get to it. Druids ended up getting Innervate across the board in the patch. I know that in the past, where a druid had to be specced for it, they were reserved for priests and other druids as they could out heal Shaman, and I accepted this it made sense. However, with my ability to stand there and spam heal (not quite as well as a Paladin, but getting there) for roughly 25-40k (+/- depending on crits) on my mana pool, plus the requirement of throwing totems, I was wondering if the Innervate Restriction Precedent would be reconsidered. If all I am doing is healing, I feel that I should be considered along the same precedent as other MAIN healers, especially if that is how I am spec'd out. It isn't about thinking I am more deserving than anyone else, it's because of the contribution to the raid.

If I respec back to a damage spec, I will end up losing about 20-25% effectiveness in the healing department, but I more than make up for that loss as a melee or casting Shaman. (For instance - last week's Rags wipe had him at roughly 20-30k health. I do that much damage in melee in that encounter alone). I hate to be the "ultimatum" type, but the fact is without the possibility of an innervate - which is much more necessary in FR than other times - I am not as beneficial to the raid and will most likely respec back to a more damage oriented spec. Respecing would be a noticeable loss in the healing department due to the stacking effects of my healing waves (afaik - I am the only one with this in the raid, and this improves all healing waves from all shaman cast on the MT by up to 18%), the Ancestral Healing which STACKS with Inspiration (25 -> 33% increase in armor), and the 20% reduced aggro from healing.

So, with that said, can we please reconsider the set-in-stone restriction on Innervates please - especially in boss fights where this is the concern. Seriously, the only three encounters I can see needed to ever have an innervate would be Onyxia (mandatory FR kills any regen I get from gear I wear - FR = no regen), Golemagg (enrage on Golemagg and length of fight) and Domo (length of fight overshadows my regen). I don't wear FR at any other point in MC (as a healer) - no need with the buffs and my totem.

[Maube]

in complete and utter honesty Jero... I let the druids use thier common sense in Innervating (of course we usually didnt have innervate)

Yes Priests are usually innervated... however, it seems the only innervates that go to priests are when they are healing and not just decursing.

Meh, guess I dont really use Innervate as many do, as a crutch. Heck Alliance side I never used my innervate on anyone but myself. =p

[Huato]

I find with Zuato that I tend to innervate myself during the long boss fights vs. a priest because as it stands now most of the priests we go to the core with have higher Spirit and more +mana/5 gear than Zuato does, so they don't run out as quickly. Now that I am getting more +Int, +Spirit and mana/5 I do innervate priests more often. The other reason is that the priests have been doing more de-magicing leaving us Druids and Shaman to do the healing on the MT and parties.

As for innervating a resto spec Shaman that is assigned to a tank for a boss encounter, yes, I would innervate them if necessary since they are a primary healer. It's amazing how Blizzard made only one class Horde side with the ability to de-magic, yet give their tertiary healing class limited healing compared to the Paladin...so we have to put priests on de-magicing duty and have the Druids and Shaman heal. Not that big of an issue really, but shaman have the WORST mana regen from spirit of any caster/healer class in the game. I can sympathize since I have both a 60 Shaman and Druid.

That said...we've suffered a shortage of Druids with the exception of one night in our MC runs. For a long time only Ionas and I (regulars) had innervate, as we were the only two druids that attended regularly that were fully restoration specced. Now that it is trainable I can see us using it more, however we usually average 2 to 3 Druids per run as is, so we have to be picky about who gets innervated at this point in time. We've even had a shortage of Shaman lately too, but fortunately we received an influx of priests to help compensate.

I do love the swiftmend talent. I can pop a rejuv on, swiftmend and immediately throw another up for a lot of healing fast.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Something I should have asked, but didnt is, what is the cooldown on an innervate? 1, 3, 5 or 30 minutes?

and - my + healing gear is from ZG and drops...kinda fun to have that much. The response I have received there so far equates to "Shaman can't out heal Priests, it's not possible" and "respec and get mana tide" from Grumish. Crypta is a little more technical and I appreciate his insight.

I dunno, I sort of smell a re-respec coming on where I go back to my flattening ways. So much for the kinder, gentler Jeroabem.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Jeroabem/Sabrianica

[Huato]

Innervate has a 6 minute cooldown.

The fact you can heal that well as a priest is damned impressive, and I firmly believe Shaman can outheal priests in certain instances (also depends on spec too)...Huato has been in the top 10 list of healers often in MC, and he is not resto spec, so I can only imagine how much better a full resto Shaman would be, and one that has all the healing gear you have.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Innervate has a 6 minute cooldown.

The fact you can heal that well as a priest is damned impressive, and I firmly believe Shaman can outheal priests in certain instances (also depends on spec too)...Huato has been in the top 10 list of healers often in MC, and he is not resto spec, so I can only imagine how much better a full resto Shaman would be, and one that has all the healing gear you have.

For reference, last week in my healing gear for our part 2 MC run (Ghennas -> Rags), where I was healing for everything up to our second attempt, I finished fourth place on overall healing - and I didn't heal at all on our second attempt on Rags - as an Enhancement (35) / Elemental (16) Shaman. I can't wait to see how tomorrow night's full run goes for me, there is a very good chance I could be #1 or #2.

That being said, the DM that recorded it was not mine, and I was never grouped with the person who reported to me my placement. I think this is a strong number (not quite a fact value, but good enough) since the result would have to have been a synched number.

I'm gonna consider staying this spec, but I will need to get a Beast Deck put together for the Blue Dragon Card if I am gonna stay here, as well as probably investing in someone to get me some weekly MMPs and/or Sagefish Delight stuff. I also need to check my + Healing gear to see if I can squeeze out some more regen / 5 than what I get currently, as I think my priority has been +healing, then +int, then +regen. I'll post more when I get a chance to review.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

For the sake of argument, here is this week's stats.

Don't know what to say but that the numbers don't lie and an innervate is warranted, imo.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Jeroabem/Sabrianica

[Martok]

Nicely done!

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Don't know what to say but that the numbers don't lie and an innervate is warranted, imo.

Well...Thanks to Zuato, I have a new appreciation for Innervate. I can see the other side of this argument and I probably will not be calling for an innervate again. It's nice, but without the huge innate spirit that a priest/mage would have, an innervate on this Shaman is a little silly. I got like 3.5 - 4.8k mana (depending on if I was casting or not). Between my 10% regen in combat and keeping a mana spring down and being smart about healing, I probably will not need an innervate - ever.

I'm also working a couple other angles - Brilliant Mana Oil and Sagefish Delight - for added regen in combat. Should cover everything I need.

One thing I would like to say about this thread, and I mean it sincerely, is that I appreciate the fact that there have been no "flame-tastic" posts. The criticisms have been constructive. It feels like a dialogue compared to a "know your place" attitude that I encountered HERE.

Innervate netted me between 2.8 and 4.5k mana restored depending on whether or not I was casting. For something with a 6 minute cooldown it seemed a little less than what I expected. By the third attempt at the General in AQ, I had figured out where I needed burst healing and where I could hold back a little and focus on regenning. I appreciate that Zuato was willing to throw me the innervate(s) when he did, because it gave me the opportunity to move from theorycraft into application. Thanks again Zuato.

[Kaerfiremane]

I dont have the stats on me, but the metagaming reason that priests are always chosen for innervate are a few fold

1) Priests usually have more mana than shamans or druids

2) Priests have the best healing in the game

3) Priests have the best spirit/regen conversion.

Much like AGI converts to crit diffirently for warriors,rogues, and hunters (20 for 1%, 29 for 1%, and 53? for 1% respectively) Spirit converts to extra mana for a priest at a much more favorable ratio than that of druids, and even moreso than that of shaman (Which is the "hunter" of spirit conversions)

So a priest will get much more use out of an innervate than any other class will.

[Maube]

I just get a little miffed when the Shadow priests blow through their mana bar under a minute and then get innervated so when the Holy or discipline priest has no more mana to heal effectively, there is no innervate ::sighs::

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Priest Spirit to mana regen per 5 seconds = 4:1

ALL OTHER CASTERS regen per 5 seconds = 5:1

This thread was dead, let it return to the grave!

[Kaerfiremane]

Huh, news to me. I was under the impression that shamans were worse off than druids. Still, worse than preists and you have on average 2000 less mana than an equivilantly geared raiding priest. And your heals are less mana effeciant.

If the raid is crunching to the point where innervate is make/break, a priest is always your best bet.

I just get a little miffed when the Shadow priests blow through their mana bar under a minute and then get innervated so when the Holy or discipline priest has no more mana to heal effectively, there is no innervate ::sighs::

Shadow priests aren't very useful in a raiding environment, to be honest. And you certainly wouldn't want to innervate one. Then again, it might be hard to tell the druids to innervate priests except for "these two"

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Huh, news to me. I was under the impression that shamans were worse off than druids. Still, worse than preists and you have on average 2000 less mana than an equivilantly geared raiding priest. And your heals are less mana effeciant.

As far as gearing equivalent to raiding priests, in my full on healing attire, I have 6.7k Mana (buffed) and +317 Healing. I know of only one other healer in my raid that has much more than that, and that's Allentrace (Holy/Disc priest). With the Headmaster's Charge buff, he has over 10k mana fully buffed. My healing gear is part ZG drops, ZG Shaman Quest Gear, Earthfury and one piece of Elements gear.

In Resto, my heals are roughly equivalent to a Druid healing, less the Heal over time spells. With a couple talents spent in the right spots, my heals also buff the heals of every other Shaman in the raid (something no other class can do) by up to 18%. It's not the same as being as mana efficient, but it is an incredible boost to the healing for the raid. As an Enhancement Shaman, I have found that I have to pace myself on the healing. Yeah, I can spam heal during the Golemagg and Domo fights and not run out of mana or use a potion, but even I know that they don't have the bang for the buck that Priests & Druids have, yet I still manage to outheal them and I am constantly requested for healing duty. /shrug Go figure.

If the raid is crunching to the point where innervate is make/break, a priest is always your best bet.

Not necessarily, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Shadow priests aren't very useful in a raiding environment, to be honest. And you certainly wouldn't want to innervate one. Then again, it might be hard to tell the druids to innervate priests except for "these two"

Bulloney. Last night a Shadow Priest showed me how WRONG this assumption it. It comes down to the player, not the spec. Shadow Priests are like combo-class healers. They make desired Holy/Disc priests look like Easy Mode. While DPSing, they can also heal a tad (Vampiric Embrace) on a slightly better scale than a Shaman's Healing Stream Totem. They can pop out of Shadow Form, save the day with healing if/when things get tight, and go back to dealing damage. If played correctly, they can cause damage that keeps pace with some mages and warlocks based on gear. A Shadow Priest is a utility player. You don't want a full roster of them, but having a couple is invaluable to any raid - just like you don't want a raid full of Light Well/Power Infusion priests either.

((The situation was a level 50 Rogue, a level 60 Warrior and a level 60 Shadow Priest versus about 10-12 level 51 Elite Trolls. No one died, except the trolls. Shadow Priest popped in and out of Shadow Form to kick butt while saving butts.))

[Huato]

Aye, spirit is more beneficial to Druids than to Shaman (Tier 3 is very representative of what makes most sense stat wise for end game raiding...Shaman get Sta & Int, Druids get Sta, Int, and Spirit).

I get more mana/tick on Zuato than I do with Huato, and Huato has more mana/5 gear. I have noticed a difference...I even sought out a small spirit enchant to my boots for a little more (ok, 1/tick)

[Kaerfiremane]

While DPSing, they can also heal a tad (Vampiric Embrace) on a slightly better scale than a Shaman's Healing Stream Totem. They can pop out of Shadow Form, save the day with healing if/when things get tight, and go back to dealing damage. If played correctly, they can cause damage that keeps pace with some mages and warlocks based on gear. A Shadow Priest is a utility player. You don't want a full roster of them, but having a couple is invaluable to any raid - just like you don't want a raid full of Light Well/Power Infusion priests either.

In no way once you get out of MC will a shadow priest approach even comperable damage to a real dps class. Amazingly mana inefficent, bursty aggrolicious dps at best :>).

A shadow priest in a dps slot is a downgrade from a warrior, mage, rogue or hunter. Their healing is sub-par compared to a resto druid and a resto shaman will heal comperably if not better.

Shadow just isn't designed for raiding. Vampyric embrace isn't enough healing to even matter later on, and the damage you would need to do to keep up would leave you oom within a minute or two.

Every class has certain specs which are less desireable for raid environments. For instance : Balance Druids, Beastmaster hunters, "Tankadins", Enhancement Shaman, Fire/Arcane Mage (for MC), etc.

[Jeroabem/Sabrianica]

Beastmaster? Nope - I want TSA from Survival. More than spec, I want people who come to play, have fun and get-er-done. Spec falls a distant last place to that.

[Waldonnis]

Every class has certain specs which are less desireable for raid environments. For instance : Balance Druids, Beastmaster hunters, "Tankadins", Enhancement Shaman, Fire/Arcane Mage (for MC), etc.

Actually, I'll disagree about paladins and fire/arcane mages, both of which I've played. Fire mages in MC can turn out comparable if not more DPS than a frost mage, but require a little more support (e.g. curse of elements to reduce some resistances). Sure, their primary school is useless against Rags and other pure-fire mobs (fire lords, etc), but they still can cast frostbolts and arcane missiles like the rest of us. They only suffer a damage hit with frost with crits, since they get 1.5x damage rather than 2x. Other than that, fireballs get full effect from +dmg gear (frostbolts get 84% of +dmg) and mobs like Mags are actually fire vulnerable...it adds up, believe me, but it takes a smart fire mage to know what school to use and when. Downside is mana efficiency, but that's not as important now that we all have evocation.

As for paladins, it's a moot argument on the Horde-side, but their buffs are very useful in certain situations. Sure, they may not be ideal for every case, but make good back-up healers and some of the blessings really do help make things easier. The downside is the nature of their buffs (timers, specifically) and trying to curb them from using their weapons

[Kaerfiremane]

Beastmaster? Nope - I want TSA from Survival. More than spec, I want people who come to play, have fun and get-er-done. Spec falls a distant last place to that.

Exactly my point . Pets die too often to be useful, and 100ATK to your party is tons of DPS.

If you want people to have fun, play their specs and whatever thats fine... Im just giving you game reasons why innervate is used as it is. Its one thing to say "bring a shadow priest cause thats more fun for you". Its another to say that a Shadow priest fulfills a valuable raid role.

Every class has certain specs which are less desireable for raid environments. For instance : Balance Druids, Beastmaster hunters, "Tankadins", Enhancement Shaman, Fire/Arcane Mage (for MC), etc.

Actually, I'll disagree about paladins and fire/arcane mages, both of which I've played. Fire mages in MC can turn out comparable if not more DPS than a frost mage, but require a little more support (e.g. curse of elements to reduce some resistances). Sure, their primary school is useless against Rags and other pure-fire mobs (fire lords, etc), but they still can cast frostbolts and arcane missiles like the rest of us. They only suffer a damage hit with frost with crits, since they get 1.5x damage rather than 2x. Other than that, fireballs get full effect from +dmg gear (frostbolts get 84% of +dmg) and mobs like Mags are actually fire vulnerable...it adds up, believe me, but it takes a smart fire mage to know what school to use and when. Downside is mana efficiency, but that's not as important now that we all have evocation.

As for paladins, it's a moot argument on the Horde-side, but their buffs are very useful in certain situations. Sure, they may not be ideal for every case, but make good back-up healers and some of the blessings really do help make things easier. The downside is the nature of their buffs (timers, specifically) and trying to curb them from using their weapons

I agree. Fire mages are more useful than Beastmaster hunters, to the point where youd never say that a fire mage is a semi useless slotting. However, not being able to do appreciable dps on Rags and Geddon and let alone a lot of the trash is frusterating. Still I see what you mean by that. Im only talking about raid effeciancy from a numbers standpoint. Obviously a fire mage is a weaker choice than an ice mage for rags.

Again, if your goal is "bring what you want and have fun" then there arent any rules because whats best doesnt matter.

Pallies are in the same boat as Shamans. However since theya re backup healing most raids, including ours, are a lot more leniant on their specs. It isnt make or break like Priest or Hunter or Druid specs. As long as Pallies/Shamans slot healing gear for the raid, itts all good.