Waldonnis

CLICKY They revised the site to include BC (and moved pre-BC stuff to a linkified section, which is kinda annoying at times), so it's still a good reference site. It does include some quests from various zones, although I'm not sure how complete the info is. I've seen some nice BoE pieces as well and have two blue +dmg/healing shields stashed away for myself, so I know there's some nice stuff out there.

Spellsteal it...that is all

Pretty sure the ones I've seen post-BC were all BoP, including the two leatherworking hat recipes I have on Kelani...Smed saw them (being the looter) and I did in the roll window, but nobody else seemed to unless they went to the body. I seem to recall seeing another BoP non-leatherworking recipe when I was looting as well (all on group loot, but the mechanic should be the same).

Blue post denying there's a problem with this: CLICKY.....but who knows. Coming from QA, though, that carries a bit of weight with me, so I'd tend to believe it. I saw the original post about this on the forums and, honestly, the drop rates for the patterns is pretty low to begin with and some have a lower rate than others. Wouldn't surprise me if the conjecture is more related to bad luck than a problem in the visibility code in ML scenarios. One thing I can attest to is the ability of the looter to see the recipes in group-loot scenarios, but the roll dialog is only displayed for those of that profession, so I suspect that the visibility suppression is only related to the dialog rather than not seeing the item at all when looting the corpse first-hand. In solo play, I've had countless Robe of Winter Night patterns drop for me, despite not being a tailor...I can't imagine they would just make the item invisible since many people actually change professions if they obtain a very, very rare pattern unexpectedly... I know that there were past problems with quest items (specifically the AQ gates questline), but those problems seemed to centre around the items being visible, but not lootable, which I believe this has since been fixed. If you want to be cautious, go group loot, but I personally put no stock in the theory. It would make ML'ing totally undesirable in any situation, with so many BoP patterns being scattered throughout Outland and other instances (yes, even the older ones).

I second this suggestion. I never once got garroted when I figured that one out on our second attempt (after I realised just how painful that stupid bleed was during the first attempt). Garrote application also is applied through ice barrier/mana shield as well as PW:S, so those are no help either As far as the paladin bubble idea...meh, it's of limited value, honestly. Even with 2/2 Sacred Duty (which is a bit too deep into prot talents for most holy paladins to consider), you're only looking at a 60sec reduction to the normal 5min cooldown of Divine Shield. Bleed effects are considered physical debuffs, so there are precious few options for curing them and, with the trinket out of the picture now, we seem to be down to only two...both of which are situational or talent-specific, and have horridly long cooldowns I'm going to do some research. Blizzard often adds subtle counters to most of the abilities used by instance bosses, so this one may not be different. The only exceptions that I've found are when the encounters are intended to stress the abilities of the raid in certain areas, e.g. healing-centric, decurse/demagic, etc. Has anyone ever tried something similar to what we do with the big lobster boss' debuff (not the same, I know, but still a physical debuff)...healing to full and keeping it there for 0.5-1.5 secs? This has never worked against rogues' garrote before, but who knows what they did with the mechanic that they never told us... Side note: Curious to see what your final spec will be, Huato. They've added some interesting talents since my day (two reviews and BC ago ) so I should catch up on your experiences with holy talents thus far so I can better plan my future spec. Admittedly, I'll need to respec eventually, since my prot talents are all geared towards being paired with a hunter for questing rather than instance healing/emergency off-tanking, but I already have a rough spec in mind.

Kelani's the only one keyed in my "family", just to keep the list completely updated. Waldy has no flying mount and Verissi's shelved for now and won't be doing much other than mining/farming.

Read the help, n00b! I can walk you through that tonight. I re-Mazzify every time I train on Adranna and my paladin anyway, so it's not rough. I may also start working on some saved layouts and submit them to Mazz for future revisions (for instance, one that includes pyro and some BC skills for the classes that I play). On that note, check the forums over there and add suggestions for other add-ons, since I know you have some that you missed (my favourites were already covered in the thread, so read it through first).

That sounded dirty...

I feel that the strategy is lacking in one element: crowd control. With the proper person in the role, one person could effectively handle more than one of the adds if needed to relieve some pressure from the main tank (his job is challenging enough). Granted, not just anyone can do this, so proper player selection is key for the strategy to be effective. I understand that the original audience of the thread are those going to non-heroic bar instances, but early practice with crowd control can make the transition into heroics that much easier when the time comes.... Crowd control when pulling the packs is very delicate (I've found it helpful to use misdirection shot when pulling) and it's essential that the cc'er not focus any one single mob they're controlling at any time. AoE classes are often the best selection for this role, as their abilities surpass those of classes who can only tank/seduce one mob at a time. Once an appropriate crowd controller is used, several methods may be used, but I prefer the kiting method in my raids. Kiting the adds away from the boss is extremely effective, but only if you can build up sufficient aggro with the adds. Maintaining a position within the adds' aggro radius is also required, so do not stray too far from them at any time...the last thing you want is for one of them to return to the MT and complicate the fight. Also, the MT must use every ability they have to hold the attention of the boss...they're social and do tend to assist each other randomly, so make sure not to blow all of your cooldowns at once. Oh, also, make sure an OT is available in case the cc'er runs into problems keeping aggro on all of them (intercept is a valuable ability - learn it, love it, use it!). Having proper crowd control allows you to handle the same amount of mobs with smaller parties, but it can involve lots of attempts to get everyone comfortable in their roles. Wipes will be common at first, but you'll get the hang of it. It may be helpful to swap your MT role to another player after a few attempts or for other bosses, as they may be vulnerable to one type of damage but immune to others (still working on adding the known types to the boss mods). Also, one other rule in my bar raids - NEVER LOOT IN COMBAT. Not only will it likely get you banished, but it prevents you from engaging any more mobs once you have removed one from the battle.

*head asplode*

Whew! I was hoping to hear that, as Maube was asking me this morning Thanks for the update, Rel.

Profit? Fame and fortune? Cookies? Disney World (I hear that Mickey Mouse is one tough boss)?

Sorry I couldn't make it out there, but it sounds like you got through it without problems Congrats on the new steed, Morgard! Now to get Aletia prepped for her fancy new ride and both of you through some Outland quests

Unless his charges are implemented differently than prior bosses, the key thing to retaining aggro during a charge is proximity of the tank to the boss. If he charges outside of a certain distance, the tank will be temporarily demoted from the threat list and he'll work his way down the list until a higher threat is within his range again. Every boss I've encountered pre-BC worked on this principle (Drakk, Bloodlord, Geddon, Shaz, Razorgore, Vael, Kurinaxx, etc), so I doubt Blizzard has varied from those established mechanics. One way to overcome this is for the rest of the raid to handle this fight similar to how we handled Shaz in MC - if you get aggro, run to the tank IMMEDIATELY while the tank runs towards you. Ideally, you should both meet at a midway point, but far enough from others to avoid a poorly-positioned whirlwind. Another idea would be keeping raid positioning closer to the tank (but outside of whirlwind range) so that the tank will always be in within threat proximity. There are other ways to handle this, but those are probably the most reliable and tactics that we're all familiar with already, so it wouldn't require anything new. The biggest thing to remember is not to panic if you get targetted. As for the mage tank...it's extremely situational, but very viable, especially in this case given the nature of what's being tanked here

This is more of a related comment but two things come to mind... First, I totally agree that DW shaman have become much more powerful and more prevalent from a damage perspective, and I am very happy that it's happened (you all deserved it!). I know it's a big switch, though, so take a lesson from another (formerly) heavy-damage class: Aggro control is not something reflective of how good your tank is (or even their class, including druids), but a function of your own ability to meter your damage appropriately. Heavier-damage mages in the past have made this look easy in MC and such, but believe me, it takes tons of practice to know the limit, and I frequently had to scale back my spell ranks just to stay under the "threat line". As Uncle Ben once told Peter Parker, with great power comes great responsibility... Also, I've been looking more critically at the proposed changes to feral druids with regards to tanking. While a flat comparison is easy (before vs after), I've been taking a deeper look at each form and it's designed purpose, as well as their relation to the "parent" classes that each form's role is akin to. I actually think this isn't as much of a nerf to individual skills as it is an adjustment to the way bear tanking was intended to work vs. how it is now. If you consider that dire bear has traditionally been similar to a protection warrior (takes tons of damage, deals little, generates threat based upon abilities rather than pure damage), and cat form similar to a rogue (aggro reduction ability, high damage output, fast attack speed, increased critical strike chances, low damage mitigation)...the proposed changes actually are in-line with restoring those roles....I'll explain... What I've noticed with most druids post-BC is that bear form is being used to deal heavy damage (when combined with mangle) which has resulted in a greater amount of threat being generated than a comparable protection warrior ability-wise. This could not have been foreseen or intended, as bear tanks would effectively replace warriors or at least relegate them to "special circumstance tanking" (e.g. stance dancing required or crushing blow mitigation). We've actually been seeing this happen and I've heard many people comment that they love druid tanks. Makes me happy to the see the acceptance, but warriors were and should be as good or better at tanking if spec'ed for it (and skilled at doing so)...druids should not totally supplant that design. From a druid perspective, the changes appear to be focused around ensuring adequate rage is being made available to generate threat via methods that don't include doing lots of damage. I still think the threat generation will need some work (swipe may need another modifier change and I'd love to see some tweaks to maul), but I'm considering it an adjustment that doesn't cut the knees out from under the class in PvE tanking. As such, I think that druid tanking will remain very viable, but will be back on-par with warriors' abilities and also will be removing the "dps'ing bear tank" role, as it appears to not be part of the intended design according to what I've seen commented by Blizzard. Threat will be harder to generate now, but any serious tank (bear or otherwise) knows how rewarding it is to beat an encounter and just how much work it takes to tank something effectively. I hope we'll all see it as a challenge to overcome rather than an outright defeat As for people that frequently draw threat from the tanks...don't forget the lessons we learned in MC about threat management...the 5-mans are a cakewalk to recover from that kind of mistake, but I'm sure the 10- and 25-man raids are another story, where an unintended aggro pull may wipe everyone. Controlling the encounter > damage meter epeen

Yep, I'm one of those mages. I didn't believe the forum whining before about how badly mages took it at 70, but after seeing how little our damage and abilities scaled, I'm now inclined to agree....yet, we all know they'll come at us with the nerf bat yet again (if the changes get implemented in the other thread, it's likely we'll start losing frequently against the one class we always dominated). Toss in the reduction of benefit from +dmg if we took cast-time reduction talents...yeah, thanks. I think it was best summed up by an old foe of mine when he said "What's our role now?". I haven't seen the video, but I will say this about spellsteal: it's fun, but it's pigeon-holed mages even further into a "gimmick class" role. Spellsteal is the "need AoE for core hound packs" of BC, akin to tranq shot for hunters or the Suppression Room in BWL for rogues....e.g. a gimmick that forces you to bring a token person from that class. Honestly, aside from polymorph, spellsteal, or refreshments, why are mages even needed at this point? Warlocks do equivalent or greater damage and seduction is nearly as good as polymorph. They also have the potential for much deeper mana pools and twice the survivability. Hunter traps are also pretty viable for crowd control and even moreso if the hunter is deep in survival. *shrugs* I guess I'm a bit disgruntled that Blizzard gave us a neat spell and a few "need spellsteal for this fight" while continually bonking us in the head with the bat. I looked at my list of old mage friends the other day and realised that I hadn't seen one of them log on their mage much since hitting 70...most were playing alts.

I was reading a BC review on Slashdot the other day and found this nifty diagram that really helped clear some things up for me about keys and what the requirements are for each. I hope it helps those of you who may be "chronically confused" like myself...

I'd also like to add a few things that were mentioned as well. Although not main talking points, I felt they were important to note. First, I want to encourage more forum use by everyone...not just reading, but also contributing. We have sections for so many aspects of what we are guild-wise (RP story lines, raiding information, PvP, crafting, etc.) and I'd love to see more material added to each section. I sometimes try to approach our forums as an new member or non-Crusher would, trying to get a feel for the Clan and where I fit in. I've been very pleased (and entertained) by the RP stories being posted and would love to see other sections fill in as well....it all adds to the flavour and substance of the guild. The more quality info/stories/fun threads we can add to our corner of webspace, the better we get to know each other and work together. On a side note, the forums can be a great way to organise instances or events. I notice that some people (myself included at times) have been frustrated lately when they log in and can't find anyone to help or run an instance with, so I'd urge everyone to start trying to use out-of-game communications (a.k.a. RIGHT HERE) to help you get groups going or events put together. For some smaller stuff, it's not a big deal to throw something together for on the fly (single elite quests, etc), but for events like Dreadsteed quests or even some instances...some of those take some prep work and it's best to get those posted and planned in advance. Basically, use the forums...they're here for all of us. Consideration and timing of whispers. I didn't say much to this in the meeting, but we all seemed to agree that we get whispers often at the worst possible times (mid-fight in an instance, in battlegrounds, etc)....and this isn't only the leadership saying this. Please be considerate to your Clanmates and look before you whisper. If it's an emergency, don't hesitate at all to contact us, but if it can wait, it's probably best to hold off or just send "Let me know when you're done in there...I have something to talk with you about" whisper instead (also, PMs work well for contacting the elders...we all check the forums frequently). Guildchat. Vrugz's notes were excellent on this point and I want to stress how much improvement I've seen over the past few weeks. I know it's been chaotic post-BC and everyone has so many questions and things they'd like to do...so much so that it's sometimes easy to forget the RP flavour that we like to maintain in guildchat. Please be mindful of our RP tradition and tone in guildchat and I'd urge everyone to participate in-character more often (it's really good fun, so don't be shy). I'd also like to stress that guildchat is not an extension for LFG and, while I'm not saying don't try to organise groups there, I do want people to use guildchat for more than just that (toss a Vrugz' odor or Verissi hair joke in here and there if you can't think of anything else...that material writes itself ). Having a common chat channel is not only a way to say to each other what we want to do/organise, but also a way to get to know each other a bit better and have some in-character interaction with others. Also, a pet peeve of mine lately is race-specific language use, most frequently by blood elves...I know it's in-character, but it's also more than a bit exclusionary and, bluntly, pretty rude to those of us who are trying to play along with the conversation. For me, once I see another language, I immediately tune out since my participation is obviously not desired, so you've thrown up a big red STOP sign for me and others. If you really need to tune out others, please take it to whispers. In all, it was a good meeting and I hope what we've posted is helping to clear a few things up and answer some questions that many of the leadership have been asked lately. I've always been and continue to be very proud of being in a guild that does so many things well (PvP, raiding, RP, etc). Let's keep up the good work on all of those fronts and ensure that we keep that third/third/third balance.

*Kelani adds her hoofprint to the list, as well as her pets' prints*

I've had mine just disappear at least once...I'm assuming some mobs have the ability to dispell it now (it was hinted at that they were going to do this, so I'm guessing that they did). Also, and I haven't tried this yet, but ice block *may* be able to be stolen using spellsteal. It seems to work for everything else I've tried thusfar (priest bubble, shaman shields, warlock fel armour...). I would like to test this with a paladin bubble one day, if one of our new elvish friends wouldn't mind helping

I'm sitting at around 25% crit, so I may rethink my talent decisions (I've not been too happy with some of my choices post-60, so a respec is in my future anyway). It's definitely worth considering for solo play for someone like me and I guess I'll find out how well it would work out for me in instances once I actually go somewhere and see how long my pet lasts

Thanks, Tonac, for the great info! I just recently hit 66 and wasn't really sure how well the kill command would work out (especially with me being a marksman hunter) and had discounted it a bit in my mind as more of a beast mastery thing. With what you're saying, though, I'll definitely have to give it a shot (no pun intended) since it may help my pet not only generate more damage, but also increase his threat. I was also curious about the snake trap and how that would perform realistically, as well as just how flexible misdirection would be, so this information is very promising and gives me something to look forward to. From what you've said, I think I'll have a great time and add some nice benefits as a hunter in instance groups.

*cracks his knuckles* Sounds like a good opportunity for Waldonnis to sharpen up his fishing skills!

Awww, I like my zombie mount