Waldonnis

Hahaha, believe me, I thought about doing that I did have fun doing that quest, despite some hard times in Un'goro (I was and still am undergeared for that one). In the end, I'm just happy to have done it and really feel that the encounters really stress the weak spots in any player's playstyle...and often improves their skills. For me, the weakness was melee and getting into/out of melee range quickly...and the quest really helped me improve that.

Actually, if we were staying in MC and never planning to move on to other places, then I wouldn't care at all about doing this. Time savings is only one of the end benefits and isn't necessarily why we need to do this. Simply put, there are fights that we *will* face where our current "system"...to be honest...will absolutely never work. As a raid leader, it's my responsibility to ensure that we improve as a whole, or at least introduce some other methods of doing things that may work better than what we're doing now. Bluntly, we lose tanks every week in MC...often repeatedly...while I get healed for up to 8000 all at once by four different people (and only have 2900 health). If that isn't a big, glaring sign that our "healing system" has problems and needs some/more organisation, I don't know what else to call it. Note that this isn't a personal attack or accusation against the healers at all...just an observation that what we're doing could be improved and that raid leaders (myself included) need to provide the framework by which to accomplish that. In exchange, I ask for cooperation and to at least give it a fair shot...or figure out something better on your own collectively because what we have is NOT working well. Most of this is our (raid leaders) fault for not instituting stuff like this before. I can only speak for myself here, but I do accept that blame for the past, but I need the healers to work with me and together on this or it's all for naught. As for the sacrifice of the social element, I do monitor the healer channel and, from what I can tell, there's more chatter on the hunter channel comparatively (and we only really use the channel for assignments)....so, what social sacrifice? I've had a few people tell me that priests really don't talk much at all with each other, so unless my information and observations are totally off-base, I'm really not seeing much impact there. Also, calling out when to rotate or making assignments periodically is hardly a sacrifice of time or communications...actually quite the opposite since more cooperation and communication will need to happen. What I expect: Nobody's expecting a big-bang here, as implementing a rotation takes practice and instruction for those who are totally unfamiliar (and very helpful even to those who've done it before with others). The goal isn't to finish in record time...the goal is to stop the anarchy of healing that we have going on currently and should end up reducing healer stress rather than increasing it (since you won't always have to look at 40 sets of bars and will end up with clear assignments). Of course *how* rotations are set up is situational, but I don't feel that rotations themselves are, especially in instances above MC. Barring a single-healer scenario, I can't think of a single instance that couldn't be better-handled if some semblance of a rotation was set up. It needs to be tried and practiced, and I don't see any disagreement from anyone, so I'm going to post some "practice time" signups for the coming weeks and will expect every healer to attend at least one. Practice time is not optional in my eyes from a BWL perspective, so plan on attending one if you raid BWL (instances are not exactly great times to start learning stuff like this). If there are scheduling conflicts, please let me know so we can work something out. Heh, and if you think healing in a 40-man raid is stressful, try leading it... Oh, and for those uninformed, I did play a holy paladin (or as I liked to put it "I can't kill anything, but hardly anything can kill me"), so this isn't some non-healer telling you how to play. Just trying to improve what appears to be a lack of organisation so we can all relax a bit more and have more predictable and reliable runs. I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing "healing was a little off" or "not enough healing tonight"...let's fix that so it never gets said again

I can only offer a quote from Andrew Jackson to this: "Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defence and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it." A sincere thank you to Captain Jason Hamill for his service to his country and its citizens, and to his family for giving up the most precious thing in the world so that he could serve - time with a beloved family member. You're all heroes in my eyes and, every day, I cherish the liberty and freedom that our soldiers have fought to protect (past and present).

I managed to coax, con, and club (not necessarily in that order) Kytae, Amahli, and Vendes up to Winterspring to learn and practice healing rotations....and they did FANTASTIC! We started off with one slayer and quickly moved to two at a time...given how often those guys mortal strike, it was quite an experience from my perspective as well as theirs, I'm sure. At one point, I had two smacking my bear body around for 7 minutes straight and we still were barely stressing their combined healing capability using the rotations, never once using a mana potion or innervate. For the final exercise, I took on three slayers at once, which I must admit was nerve racking for me a bit (hehehe, hard watching your health yoyo that much). After a 9.5 minute fight with no potion or innervate use, we emerged victorious and could've realistically kept it going for another 9 minutes if needed, I'm sure. For those uninitiated in what healing rotations are or do, let me explain it. Basically, the goal is to have continuous, organised healing for extended periods of time, primarily for tanks, but it can be scaled/assigned to cover entire raids. With proper rotations set up and working, innervate use is predictable, pre-assigned, and sparse (barring emergencies), as is potion use. What this means to the rest of us is that we would end up with spare innervates rather than hoping for one, no double- or triple-healing of the same people at once, and more HPM efficiency overall. How it works: Basically, it requires a bit of set-up and planning. Ideally, whomever is in charge of organising the healers knows what each healer has for mp/5 and spirit (which in turn lets them know who regens fastest and who benefits most from innervates). Assuming three healers (we'll go with two priests and a druid), what I'm used to is the following order (more on this in a sec): 1. Median regen (preferably has the most spirit, but can vary) 2. Highest regen 3. Lowest regen Healer 1 heals exclusively until their mana reaches roughly 30% (some go as high as 50% depending on how low the median regen is or how efficient the healer is mana-wise). At this point, Healer 2 steps in and heals exclusively until they are out of mana, while Healer 1 regens and Healer 3 rests at full. Once Healer 2 is out of mana, Healer 3 takes over (often the druid, in my experience, given the above scenario) and the other two rest. By this point, Healer 1 should be nearing 75-85% and Healer 2 should be the around the same. Healer 3 can do one of two things: blow all of their mana (usually done if the fight won't last much longer) or heals until roughly 40% mana. Once that point hits, the rotation starts again with Healer 1, and so forth. In the event of massive healing needs or rotations being limited to two healers instead of three, an innervate can be introduced and targetted specifically for the person who has the highest spirit. I *never* did an innervate on anyone that was currently casting, personally, since it was never needed, but also because it was more efficient to have them regen'ing already post-5-sec-rule. In a simple scenario, where one rotation heals one tank, this system really allows for near-endless fights even without an innervate or potions. Also, think about this from an aggro-management point of view...rather than spreading aggro around to many, it's concentrated on one at a time, but there are lapses in aggro building from a healer's perspective Two things are key to setting this up: * Informing your class/healing leads of your +spirit and +mp/5 * Communicating frequently within the rotation Beneficial times for healing rotations: * Bosses that limit healing and casting (there's one in Naxx that's particularly nasty) * Boss fights that are VERY long or multi-phased (new raids at Nef, for instance...or new MC raiders at Magmadar) * Chain-pulling trash mobs, allowing for very little healer downtime, if any, and thus greater time efficiency One other thing to note is, while not necessary, I always found it helpful to have the druid assigned to the healing rotation be the sole innervate source for that rotation to eliminate confusion or double-innervates. In emergencies (druid dies or has to shift for some reason), another druid is pre-assigned by name and given a specific person to innervate when called upon. It's more done for organisation than anything else and helps get innervates to those that benefit from it the most in a timely fashion. If there are questions or comments about healing rotations, I'd be happy to answer them...I've done it a bunch personally and am confident that Kytae, Amahli, and Vendes have had enough practice and experience to be able to add more tips to what I've explained here. I would really like to see this started in MC tomorrow if possible and think it'll help immensely even in that raid. It's almost essential for our raid in BWL, in my opinion, so use MC as a training ground when possible...and I'll make myself available for more practice runs in Winterspring if the healers think it's valuable practice time Thanks again to Kytae, Amahli, and Vendes for joining me today and healing me while I very slowly killed elites...it was a fun time and I hope everyone not only had fun but came away with something they considered good All three of you did wonderfully and took to this very quickly (better than most of the people that I used to run around with ages ago), so be very proud!

Congrats! I enjoyed my bow quest (and cursed quite a bit on a few of the demons) and am always happy to see others weather through theirs and come out victorious

...but where is the sacrifice if you had what you wanted? If you can dps as well or better than the other talent trees AND kite reasonably (along with healing, which I remind you most other classes cannot do AT ALL), there needs to be something given up...and the lack of a stun is what appears to be it. For resto, stun apparently isn't needed due to survivability despite lower melee dps, elemental can kite very well (buying them distance at the cost of some healing ability and melee dps), and enhance can dual-wield with higher melee dps at the cost of reduced kiting and healing opportunity. Honestly, this sounds exactly like it should be and how it effectively functions for druids, who only really have stuns because we have to shift forms to do anything. Let's suppose you had a stun...what would be the most likely use of it? Purportedly, it would be to heal, but most would use it offensively, much like warlocks use deathcoil (FREQUENT complaints about using that one offensively). Seriously, how many shaman would even bother healing, instead using a stun to continue dps unfettered? My bet would be all of them, adding to the already broken stun/fear/poly system that Blizzard has to juggle PvE-PvP wise. I always hate to take this tact or arguments, but it sounds like you want a rogue damage-wise that can also heal and cast, which is totally unrealistic. Shaman are already tough to beat for most classes...making one tree more attractive with little sacrifice would make the other two worthless, as it would make rolling any other class worthless. To be totally honest, mage is lacking in a bunch of categories, but there's little I or anyone else can do to change it, so I play my game around what I perceive to be weak spots in the design. I think this is another one of those cases where a class could and probably should be more complete, but just isn't (frequent problem with hybrids in general...ask any druid). I do totally agree about the totem system and that it needs some serious work to be more viable, but shaman are hardly crippled or useless if they have two of three talent trees that are entirely viable (mages have two...arcane is worthless without frost or fire) and a third that has some specialised applications that can be augmented by adding points into one of the others as well.

QFT. I read the PvP forums religiously and that's pretty much all that I ever see. It's become comic to watch and terribly predictable, but overall, I think that a tenuous balance has been achieved, with every class complaining about at least one other. Most mage vs. warrior fights will go predictably in the mage's favour with few exceptions. We pretty much own protection warriors, but other builds can be tough to beat if they know our normal tactics. As much as I disliked him in character, Gothalion had my number nearly every single time (although he had to result to using engineering most of the time to beat me)...and I do give credit to the other warriors that have learned more about mages than I'll probably ever realise. If you'd like, I can help offer tips against mages (since most do the same exact thing every time), but the fight is still heavily tilted in their favour since they're designed to be strong against warriors. There are no other classes that are more commonly judged as deciding factors in PvP than warlocks and shaman. Some of this is due to the whiny nature of the PvP forums and player base when they lose, but it's not incorrect...both have abilities that other classes lack completely. Fear is obvious in warlocks' case, but shaman spell interrupts are HUGE and something that many, many other classes lack. Couple that with the ability to heal, windfury, and the host of other abilities granted by totems (which admittedly need some tweaking), shaman is a very strong class. Sure, against other ranged classes, you will be weak, but you're inherently more mobile than most other casting classes and pack a serious burst-damage punch. Rather than focusing on the negatives, try to look at the positives of the class and use them to your advantage. Hell, I'd love to do as much burst damage and be as survivable as a shaman can with Verissi, but I know that what I sacrifice in those categories, I gain in mana efficiency and crowd control. With Tobalaya, I am very squishy and have limited range, but make up for it in burst damage and stuns. Kelani is weak in close-range melee, but strong in kiting/ranged combat...and so forth. Such are the tradeoffs we all make. If we gave shaman plate, stuns, more efficient healing, better totems, and increased their damage output, why would anyone want to roll any other class? On any given day, I see shaman (and other classes) asking for buffs to their weakest points, but in the end, they never get them...it's just something we all have to live with. Oh, and face a pre-BC marksman hunter as a mage sometime...even with ice barrier up, if they have range, I will likely (and often am) two-shotted....so nothing's really changed for me....and I'm fine with that.

I doubt you'll get a stun, given shamans' kiting abilities. Hunters are actually in the same boat to a certain extent, as it's quite touchy as to when you can drop a trap currently and barring a feign/trap macro, you only really have concussive shot/cheetah/pray (this is changing, but not sure if it's for the better). Also, it's really tough to compare a shaman to most of the other stun-oriented classes. For many of the common "stun" classes, those are actually talent specs that lead to so many stuns so frequently...and those that have a few to choose from have no ability to kite whatsoever. Top that off with the power of totems that provide crowd control and powerful effects as well as buying time to do more damage (while the opponent spends GCD cycles destroying totems). Lastly, you really can't compare crowd control like polymorph and fear to stuns, since both of the former can be countered by many classes, while stuns cannot. People complain about fear, but ultimately, stun effects are the only things that cannot be really counteracted by any other than mages with blink or the talent-obtained ice block. Hunters and other classes may be getting a bit too much for right now (from what I hear, hunter dps is insane in BC), but I expect some adjustments over time. Also, bear in mind that in Blizzard's designs, PvP is not a one-on-one battle/duel...totems are huge in group PvP, as well as shaman burst dps, so the lack of a stun really isn't something that tops the list considering that they believe that you should have enough variety around you to get things done regardless. Frankly, I no longer play a shaman, so maybe a stun would be good for the class, but I don't necessarily see it is a "must have". It's useless in higher-end PvE (like so much other crowd control) and there's hardly a lack of rogues about in PvP to really leave me wanting for MORE stuns. If anything, I'd like to see shaman abilities fill out more for PvE and be more useful than just healbot duties (same goes for all hybrid classes)...and so that it's tougher to choose between a paladin and a shaman for raiding (right now, it's hands-down paladin in a skill-for-skill comparison, although I'm going to love having both around).

Kelani has boots as well

I'll go, even if it's just to Kurinaxx.

Enjoy the day of good eats and family, all! *runs off to feast on seafood*

I've used an add-on like that before and it really helped. I doubt double-innervates will be much of a problem once we get rotations set up (since there will be specific druids assigned from the start to specific people rather than "someone innervate xyz"), but I think we've all targetted the wrong person at times. Myself, I'm notorious for innervating hunter pets

No worries about being gone for most of the week...I think most will be with family or have plans, so we'll just do with whom we have and work in some time on Tuesday (if possible) to practice before MC. If at all possible, I'd at least like to try putting rotations in place for boss fights like Mags, Golemagg, and Garr (longer fights that are generally straightforward, but require some innervates at times). I didn't mention it before, but I'd love to have some shaman participate as well. The more that are comfy with rotations, the better off we'll be when we really need them. My primary concern are priests and resto druids, due to the complimentary healing models (and innervate), but no healers will be turned away As for the alternate spot, you earned it, Amahli. I was in your corner group last week for two attempts and you were doing exactly what I wanted to see in the corner groups: placement suggestions, assignments, and were keeping me up to date between attempts with what you were seeing going on in that corner (and with the other druids). Chemmy has also been doing the same and taken over as "corner tank" due to his rapid targetting and helpful suggestions. In all, I appreciate those who step up to the plate and take command of the situation, be that a corner group, a class, or an entire raid. If nothing else, it helps me immensely to know that I have such good people in the raid (some of those choices weren't easy!)...like I said before, I may come off gruff at times, but I adore our raid group and know we'll overcome the challenges Oh, by the way, I never thought of using healing rotation practice to farm, but now that you bring it up...hehehe

The Deathmonger reminds me of every single nerf post in the PvP forum....some of the nerf requests are every bit as graphic as the sample quote

Oddly enough, that dance goes perfectly with Clapton's "Lay down, Sally" (happened to be up on my playlist when I popped open the video )

Yup, we've moved Onyxia to follow BWL rather than before it. Regrouping (figuratively and literally) after Ony in BWL was just brutal on me and confusing to some of the participants. As such, I'm not sure if we have an exact time for starting...depends on how long the raid is willing to keep pushing in BWL. If you're around, though, we can probably look for you. I'd hate to see another sinew wasted. Incidentally, have you completed your demons already? If not, we have quite a few hunters that have completed the quest (myself included) that I'm sure would be happy to offer tips or advice if you get stuck.

To help with my goal of keeping Clan Elders out of class lead slots (for various reasons, but mostly for their sanity and to give me extra input), I've made some changes to the class lead positions and have assigned some alternates as well. I modified the stickied post, but will repost them below as well Raid leader: Verissi Assistant raid leader/Grand overseer: Maube Class leads: Mage: Ghules (alternate: Maube) Rogue: Scryll (alternate: Roh) Hunter: Khanak (alternate: Mogbertha) Warlock: Chemmy (alternate: Vrugz) Priest: Molox (alternate: Kytae) Warrior: Relikk (alternate: not assigned yet) Druid: Oriahtundra (alternate: Amahli) Shaman: Baracko (alternate: not assigned yet) To restate the role of a class lead and alternate, these are the people to talk to for assignments and class-specific info within/about the raid. I rely on their input for role selection, so if you have certain strengths or experience that would benefit the raid, please speak to them so they can make more informed decisions about assignments. Even talent specs can be very useful (piercing howl, improved MotW, inproved healthstone, etc) can be VERY helpful to know for them. Also, for buffing and/or healing classes, talk to your class leads or alternates to get buffing/healing assignments. For healers, in the past we've used a generic healing assignment system...while it's worked fairly well in keeping people alive, I'll be working with a few of the healers on establishing healing rotations. While a bit painful to learn, it's a must in the long run and definitely needed for some of the fights that we'll be facing in the future (there's a boss in Naxx that only permits a healer to cast one heal per minute, for instance...and Nef is just a painfully long fight). Ultimately, we should be able to cut our innervate use by a ton and also clear up some of the "ten people have healed you simultaneously for a total of 8k" that I've seen. Also, druids will be assigned to rotations to provide innervates (which should also be pretty predictably given) so we don't have any double innervates due to confusion. If you're interested in learning and practicing healing rotations, I'll be making Hoofie available this week (as a punching bag) to provide a healing target as I maul my way through some elites in Tyr's Hand and possibly in Winterspring (warning: Hoofie does crap for damage, so expect some looooong fights and alot of healing). Bring gear that you don't mind getting banged up a bit in case I die So far, I've been talking with Kytae, Baracko, and Amahli about practice sessions, so if you want to know the basics, they should be able to introduce the concept. Lastly, I know it's frustrating to not make the raid at times and I want to assure everyone that my approvals are far from arbitrary. Ultimately, class balance is very touchy at times given our early progress so far and I'm still trying to find the right combination to get over the proverbial hump. This may mean that I need more shaman or hunters one week...and more warlocks or mages the next. Don't take it personally PLEASE...everyone will get a shot in there as time goes on. Also, I know we had some issues with doing Onyxia first (with confusion over whether or not to stay grouped), so I've decided to move Ony to after BWL to save the 30mins+ delay before first pull and to eliminate the confusion (both mine and others'). Oh, one more thing...if we wipe, PLEASE start running back as soon as you can so we can get rebuffed and started again quickly. I want to pack as many attempts as possible into a single night since we are definitely getting more aclimated to the Razorgore fight with every attempt (kiting was MUCH better this past week and the corners were starting to tighten up considerably). If everyone returns to the instance quickly and we can get the buffs up again quickly, we can jump right back into it rather than waiting around for 10-20mins. Great work so far and I'm so proud of our progress so far

Glad to hear about the delivery and congrats on the baby girl We've sure come a long way since our first days in MC...very proud of everyone, despite my grumbly attitude at times

These days, it's becoming much harder to actively avoid reading BC info...seems like it's all that anyone cares about, talks about, or plans for. Myself, I'm a "right now" type of person and while I do like to plan for what I'll do come January, I'm sure quite a bit will change in the next two months and don't want to overplan. I see a ton of frustration in a few people over nerfs to skills that they don't have yet and never have. In short, the less you know, the better off you are apparently. My advice: wait until everything is final (as in RTM, which means Released to Manufacturing), then judge what's a nerf or buff. To do anything else seems a bit like getting upset that someone is taking a chunk of the winnings from a lottery that you haven't bought a ticket for yet.

*grumbles*

Slight shift in tactics that I may as well get out there now... Hunters: I'm altering your kiting paths a bit and have a few diagrams made up that I'll post shortly (need to upload them). Ultimately, I have two that I'd like to try that are very similar, so we'll try each of them twice and see how that works out. Given the kiting problems of last week, these alternate paths should help with getting some breathing room between our hunters and their dragonkin. Mages: More crowd control, less DPS. Given that poly can be reapplied liberally, we need to focus more on keeping legionnaires sheeped/turtled/pigged first so that they can be picked up. Which brings me to... Warriors: If you see a sheep, smack it...that is all Priest: First an apology...some RL issues have kept me from working out the details of a healing rotation this past week (that, and the fact that most of you seem to be mythical on non-raid days). As such, you'll likely die a ton. Key thing in the first two phases, though, is NOT to watch the emergency monitor so much and be sparse with healing if possible. While I didn't express it properly last week, by "overhealing", I didn't mean that you personally healed more damage than they took...what I mean is that we have duplicate healing (and sometimes triplicate or more), which leads to spreading the aggro around a bit too much depending on whose "lands" first. I've also discussed a few points with Relikk about warrior kiting that should help keep most of the mobs off of you. At any rate, we can work through it tonight a bit and I'd really like to take next week, if possible, to work more on setting up the rotations (especially since we won't be running MC or BWL next week). Shaman: There seemed to be some confusion last week, so I'll say what I'm looking for specifically from shaman: totems. Earthbind for the snare and anything else that you think may be helpful to your corner group to get those mages deadified quickly while slowing down the additional spawns. Spot healing of your corner group is ok, but be mindful of threat generation in relation to the "waiting to be kited" mobs. Baracko may have additional input, but earthbind is pretty much all that I'm personally concerned with from an overall tactics viewpoint. Everyone: We need to do everything we can to keep our orb controllers from being hit during phase 2. The easier it is for them, the quicker the eggs get destroyed, and the faster we can get into the final phase of the fight. Also, keep enough proverbial "gas in the tank" for that final phase...if we're all spent or dead when the eggs are downed, Razorgore will make short work of us on his own... In all, be positive...we've done exceptionally well for our first few attempts. Also, it does get easier after this (Vael's a walk in the park comparatively). Starting with the next run (not tonight's), we'll be doing Onyxia after BWL rather than before...we blew a good 30-45mins just getting reorganised and travelling last week and I'd like to cut that out completely. Below are some kiting path changes to try (group positions are also noted). Please note that the drop-off point from the platform in the second image is about 1/3rd of the way across the platform. There's actually a somewhat-visible line on the platform itself that should help. If you go past that point, the mobs will continue pathing forward, but if you don't, they'll actually path back down the ramp they came up (which is what we want). Also, heading up to the platform, you can jump onto the ramp from an angle and force the dragonkin to path around the little obstacles and corner of the ramp. Both of these tactics really should help you get the space needed between you and the dragonkin. The corner groups will be focusing on keeping mages away from you so that you don't get dazed...we'll work on that this week as well. Hunter Kiting Path #1 Hunter Kiting Path #2

The Defiler boots won't require the speed enchant for two reasons: 1) it doesn't stack and 2) it's actually equivalent speed-wise to an enchant. If you have those boots, then definitely use those and add your choice of boot enchants to them to get more benefit

Bah, that's just Scryll's humour...don't sweat it Waldonnis can do the minor speed enchant to boots and probably has some of the materials laying around (I have tons of aquamarines, at least). I won't be around much tonight, most likely, and if so it'll be late, unfortunately. I've also got some ideas to try kiting and control-wise and am making some adjustments in the roster this week to see how it works out (hence the approvals being a bit delayed). I also need to get a few things squared away with corner group positioning after talking with a friend about the behaviour of the spawned mobs. Hopefully, things will be a bit more controlled this week as more get used to the spawn rate and are more familiar with how it all works in that second phase.

1.5 weeks away, eh? Congrats in advance (since I know how labour is sometimes a bit short-notice...hehehe)! !!! No worries about BWL. I don't think it'll be a problem to just hold your spot until you're online. I'm quite confident in all of our warriors to do their best anyway and have been very pleased with our overall progress on Razorgore anyway (last week's kiting was substantially better than before). Anyone in particular that you would have act as the alternate warrior lead until you're there? I'm currently deciding on the priest and warlock alternate leads anyway (since both of those leads have RL commitments at the moment), so I'd like to get the alternates picked before the raid tomorrow.

Pfft, Frosty is irrelevent since, like WoW, food pwnage factors are a game of paper, rock, scissors and not transitive. Learn2breakfast if you think waffles are easily defeated by french/freedom fries! Not even a frosty has the versatility that waffles do, and therein lies their strength. On a side note: Nerf ice cream sandwiches, they're entirely too powerful.