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The Lich King thought he had the upper hand, but this motley crew of brave raiders showed him how it's done! After much grief we have finally pulled it together enough to kick this giant spidey-creature-look-alike in the ass and conquer the Trial of the Crusader. Congratz raiders!

OMFG Orcala! A) You already rolled for your Crusader Orbs B) If you've rolled for them, then I assumed you knew what you were rolling for C) If you had gotten Orbs by this point would they currently be sitting in your bank gathering dust?! D) You only get 2 Orbs, you have to buy the other 2 or wait till your turn comes again E) All reagent / roster info is on the google spreadhseet link (see first post) F) You're in 2nd last place to get 2 Orbs

Hey everyone, I just wanted to point out... Now that we have a rotating roster it means I need to be a little more diligent in how I manage the calendar/roster setup. In order to simplify things I need for folks to properly setup their status for every raid. Please make sure you either ACCEPT or DECLINE the raid invites as soon as you're able to. At the start/end of a raid: - If you are set to ACCEPTED you participate in the raid and gain that night's DKP - If you are set to OUT you don't participate in the raid and gain that night's DKP - If you are set to DECLINED you don't participate in the raid and you don't gain that night's DKP - If you are set to INVITED you don't participate in the raid and you will LOSE DKP (-50 DKP). I need responses so that I can more accurately keep attendance and DKP in sync. I understand that emergencies happen, but please try to make my life a little easier - Also, if you're no where to be found when 8:00pm rings, it's -25 DKP (unless you've given someone a heads up) Zu

The plan for tonight.... New roster is working MARVELOUSLY!!!! We have tons of regular folks missing, however with the new "extended" roster we won't need to go fishing for replacements. That being said, since most of the new folks will be with us tonight... We will start by tackling ToC real quick, give a few quick attempts at Champions (the intent isn't to work on this hardcore). After that we push through as much Ulduar content as we can to get the new folks some gear. Tonight will be about gearing the new ppl. Hard Mode attempts: Flame Leviathan +3, XT-002, Hodir, Freya +1, Thorim To the new folks: You're new and this is likely your chance to shine. We'll be comparing you guys with the other new raid members

Totally irrelevant, while waiting for the server to come up last night Uggie and I decide to spawn a new thread. The last one got really big and it was time to start fresh. It was getting difficult tracking down the important information. Feel free to continue the conversation here if you like.

You bring some really valid points Waldy... I guess much of the reason why there's been a lot of DKP discussion on my part is because I've never been quite happy with what we have now. With the 6 new people in the raid I figured now was a good time to change if we decide that is right for us. DKP is something "easy" that can be modified and tailored to help folks take a second look at their gear and strategize their upgrade path. Since this a quickly devolving topic I think the best I can do now is keep the status quo. Don't touch DKP, charge the trophies based on avg. DKP price, and hope everyone gets along. In response to that I'd like to add: I *STRONGLY* believe in what Waldy is saying here. If you participate in activities external to the raid than all the better, but I will *NOT* impose or force people to do things beyond the allotted 6 hours of raid every week. I also will *NOT* (to the best of my abilities) give special privileges, DKP benefits or any other kind of favorable advantage to folks for doing this kind of activity. It is not fair to other people in the raid and certainly does not promote better team synergy. My assessment of players is done solely based on their performance WITHIN the raid.

1) would you lose your dkp if you bid and didnt win? No, that is not how an auction works. 2) what would each boss/time be worth? 1, 2, 5 or 10 dkp? I would expect in 1 DKP per Boss range. 3) would you normalize everyone into the 0-100 range? That would be the first thing done before switching. Example Scenario: - We kill Kologarn. - Everyone who has less than 100DKP is awarded 1 DKP. - First item goes up for bid. - Folks who are interested send me a WHISPER with their bid. (If ppl shout their bid into the raid chat than that's their problem). - Minimum bid is 10% of your DKP (i.e. if you have 100DKP you must be no less than 10DKP, if you have 10DKP you must bid no less than 1DKP). - Person with the highest bid wins the item. - Auction winner is docked the amount he bid.

To some extent I agree with you Lomar. It would seem that as we move on DKP is becoming less and less relevant. The truth is that the folks that do their homework, work outside of the raid and strategize typically obtain items first. Despite having normalized the numbers before Ulduar it seems like we're back in the same boat. I don't want to normalize again because it's a never ending loop. Normalization isn't a totally fair process because some folks have legitimately earned their DKP hole/hoard. It was meant to help out new folks or people who were undergeared to begin with. Besides, normalization takes me a few hours to do, it's tedious and sucks big fat donkey dick. We can nitpick all the reasons why the current DKP system doesn't work, ultimately I want to try finding a solution that is more sustainable and scalable over time. Karrock: As for your suggestion, you would introduce a significant amount of work to the DKP system. We'd need to verify all bidding players prior to each trophy bid and then validate that the proper piece was bought at the start of the subsequent raid. With a rotating roster this becomes more challenging because that person may or may not be present for the next raid. The 0 to 100 system is based on closed bidding. Meaning items have NO VALUE, players bid a portion of their DKP to win the item (like a real auction). This mix a bit of randomness, a bit DKP status and a bit of raid diligence all together.

The other thing that could fix the problem (and something I was thinking about)...is overhauling our DKP system. So here is what I was thinking of doing in place of our current system: - Fixed DKP amount per boss - Fixed DKP amount per hour - Closed bidding system - No negative DKP amounts (min set to 0) - Capped DKP amounts (max set to 100) - Minimum bids (10% of total DKP) - Not zeroSum based There are several pros and cons to this system: - Prevents massive DKP holes - Prevents hoarding (spend-it or lose-it) - Items are only worth what raiders are willing to bid for it - Players will pay a premium to get items first - It obligates players to keep track of the gear that drops and who has picked up what (which will either promote a greater cooperation between players or introduce more competition for items) - Rarer items will go for more - People will need to get used to the !bid <amount> command - Distribution may take more time initially - Stagnant loot distribution may mean that a lot folks reach their caps (awards will need to be carefully choosen) Obviously to enable this system everyone will get their DKP re-normalized between 0 and 100. Any thoughts?

You bring up good points Karrock. I must also admit that the points you bring up I have thought of as well. I agree 100% with the dangers of putting the price of these items too low. There are quite a few ppl with tons of DKP that could gobble up all the tokens and I'm not too keen on influencing DKP prices based on factors that are external to the raid. However... I cannot charge DKP based on the actual item, to do so would require me keeping track of the decisions folks took. I honestly don't have the patient or will to run around querying people and then verifying that what they told me is true. The avg DKP cost per item amounts to approx. 165 DKP. If it's the raid's will, I will put it to a vote Tuesday. (110 Vs. 165). It's up to folks to come up to their own conclusion as to whether or not a discounted price is worth it.

Hey everyone, Just a quick note on the price for the Crusader Trophies (T9.248 tokens). The final DKP price I'm setting on these will be 110 DKP. I didn't think it would be all that hard to figure out a price but apparently a lot of folks had strong opinions. - I wanted a price point that would enable good rotation between raiders and make it fair for everyone (regardless of how many badges/DKP a person may have). - I wanted to take into consideration the "badge cost" of the item - I wanted to take into consideration the compromise a player makes when choosing a tier piece over another badge item. So for those of you interested, what I did was: - Compute the avg cost in DKP and in badges of tier (T9.248) items - Compute the avg cost in DKP and in badges non-tier items - Compute the % difference in between tier and non-tier items - Discount the DKP cost of tier items based on the % difference - Round the whole thing to an "easy-to-remember" number So that's where the 110 DKP cost comes from.

*chuckles* what zuworty did was update info on one instance, and then copy pasted it through the calendar, and the calendar functionality deleted the old raid, and created a new one in its place. So no, they aren't cancelled, its just software being software, and zuworty being lazy . What he said =)

Disagreement: Haha funny...but seriously, I just picked 3 strong players. We can of course succeed with anyone of those folks missing for a night. Clarification: I'm not 100% sure what amount of DKP I wanted to dish out for ppl showing up on time but being sit out. In theory the zero sum would have to be re-distributed among ALL raiders and not only 25. That's certainly more mathy that I'd like. To be honnest I was also thinking of overhauling the DKP system, but I figured 1 big change at a time. I don't ppl's head to explode. Volunteer: Trust me when I say: I SERIOUSLY doubt we'll volunteers any time soon. On future occasions I'm sure the raid leads would be happy for folks to voluntarily take a break. For tonight, I'm looking for no less than 5 replacements!!!! I need as much of our regulars on board as possible. This is a key opportunity for our replacements to get on board with this plan. Formalize their involve, get them geared and running like our regulars.

Hey folks, This is gonna be another one of those big long and important posts. I know I've been messing a lot with the raid dynamics lately, I haven't played around with the way I administer raids this much since I started raid leading 2 years ago. Please bare with me as I try to get the right formula; something that will enable progression, allow players to have fun and improve raid morale. Replacements & Roster Rotations Anyone who's taken a look at our roster for the past month knows that we've had an incredible influx of absentees. Our current replacement model SERIOUSLY impedes progress and plays against us. Our current raid model was an impediment late in TBC and it's showing its ugly head once again. I've been juggling around many ideas and ultimately the only one that really addresses our problem is having a roster rotation. Before you all poop your pants thinking "I don't want healers to be forced to sit out again?!" please read on.... In a Nutshell We would grow our roster from a fixed 25 ppl to approximately 30 ppl. We need extras for each important roles: Tank, Melee, Range, Healer. The extras must be rotated in and will be held to same high standards as the regulars (i.e. must bring flasks, gear up appropriately, perform, etc.) Who Determines the Rotation? The raid leads will determine who sits out on a particular night. No advance notice will be given to the person sitting out, everyone is expected to be online by 8:00pm server time. How Will the Raid Leads Make the Determination? Raid leads are as follow: Healers - Uglutz (backup Kadiana) Physical DPS - Kailand Caster DPS - Zuworty Tanks - Holyssa (If I got the above wrong, let me know. If you want to be raid lead, let me know.) All 30 raiders will be on the invite list, all raid leads will have moderator status. Raid leads are expected to manage the rotation and set ppl's status to "out" shortly before invites are done (or at the very least, notify me so that I can set ppl's status to "out"). How Will We Make Sure Rotations are Fair and Consistent? This is an important question and the answer I'm about to give is sure to create a few unhappy folks... There will be no mechanism in place to assure a fair and consistent roster rotation!!! Raid leads will manage the rotation as they see fit. They are are however expected to abide to the following principles (which I know are somewhat contradictory): - Choose a combination that is in the best interest of the RAID - Enable an equal level of gearing across ALL raiders (we need to move away from the model where we have badly-geared replacements and awesomely geared regulars...everyone becomes a regular!) - Above all else: Be fair!!! So When Am I Expected to Sit Out? You are expected to sit out when your raid lead tells you so, he will advise you shortly before the raid starts. Why Does So-and-So Never Sit Out? Another point that will surely create some unhappiness... Raid leads have full discretionary power over who sits out when. I fully expect the raid leads to also opt to rarely sit out the star players. It would be unreasonable for our star players to sit out and totally impede progress in order to gear-up or have less able players "practice" on fights. Could you imagine a scenario where Holyssa, Kailand and Markenhoof were to sit out all at once. It'd be a bucket load of fail on that night. This is Totally Unfair, So-and-So Raid Lead Always has Me Sitting Out! I want to shift ppl's mentality; a raid spot is not a right, it's a privilege! It's something you EARN and if you want to avoid getting rotated out you have to try mighty hard to impress your raid lead. Ultimately, being rotated out shouldn't be seen as a punishment but rather as a means of equalizing gear and experience throughout all raid member. What About DKP? Show up at raid start time and get rotated out, you'll get DKP. If you don't show up (and don't have a good reason) you'll lose DKP. We Currently Have 24 Regulars, Where Will we Get More People? We currently have 3 or 4 replacements looking to join us. They would immediately be affected by this change. We would also being an active recruitment campaign. When Will This Take Effect? Soon, if we can iron out all the details and can get some agreement from a good number of raiders. Why? Advantages: - Because it helps us maintain 25 well geared raiders, regardless of absentees - It helps progression because we have guaranteed experienced raiders with us - It's appealing to our usual replacements, they are now able to be more involved and pursuit their own progression - It creates an atmosphere of competitiveness where folks will want to improve to secure more a more stable raid spot - It allows regular folks to take a day off and not feel guilty (I'm not sure folks feel guilty now). Disadvantages: - It's prone to favoritism and aggravates raid-politics - People have to take breaks - People who are less able or aren't as skillful tend to be penalized - "Quality of rotation" is at the mercy of raid leads and their understanding of classes, roles, boss fights and the different ways a player contributes to the raid (i.e. Raid leads need to know what a player brings to the raid beyond the "meters") Anyways, that is what I foresee in the near future. It's the only way we can be sustainable and this is more akin to the raid model currently adopted by other larger raiding guilds. Please discuss, let me know your opinions...

Going past the 11:00pm Mark I can't help but feel really irate reading those comments. We have RARELY finished past 11:10pm, even last night when we pulled Kologarn at 10:58, we managed to get all the looting done by 11:16pm (which I consider a later than usual finish). The reality is that getting a precise 11:00pm end time is near impossible, you simply can't sync the attempts so that it all works out to a precise time. Honestly, we're splitting hairs, with the exception of last night I can't quite see when was the last late end-time. I had proposed an off-the-books attempt at Ignis a while back if enough folks were interested, didn't happen, no biggie. I also strongly believe that if ppl are doing stupid ###### and it prevents us from maintaining proper raid progress, then by all means I'll extend it a bit to get over the hump. I won't let stupid things wash away any potential progress. Between finishing at 10:50pm or 11:05pm, I'll opt for the 11:05pm and my hope is that folks are dedicated enough to suffer through the extra 5 to 10min. I think the idea of an "early morning" is bit of a scapegoat, cause let's face it, does 5 to 10min of beauty rest make such a big difference in your life? Cause if it does, you might want to consider quitting the raid and getting some sleep therapy or something. 3rd Raid Night I made an offhand comment about this. For now, I totally agree with Markenhoof's comment, it's simply not worth aggravating the situation with a 3rd night until we boost things up a bit. The only thing I'd consider doing might be another DKP normalization? Or some kind of DKP system change to try and promote that influx of gear we need. Hate Level Not much hate was dished out, it was mostly a candid discussion about where we're at with the raid, morale and general progress. In fact, I'd like to opt for a much less hateful raid. No bunnies or prancing fairies, just a plain ol' raid. I Don't Know If I Suck Syndrome Most people who are good know it, most people who are bad know it, most people who are consistent don't know it. If you read up on fights, come prepared, love raiding, contribute to the good morale of the raid, consistently look for new ways to improve and enjoy yourself than you likely fall in either the first or last group. If you do all that and push numbers consistent with your spec/role/gear than I really can't ask for more than that. Unfortunately, making me raid lead does not give me any magical powers that will allow you (or anyone else...*sough*Kadi*cough*) to not stand in bad ######.

Also, we are looking to recruit a DPS Warrior. If you know of a player with good skills and decent gear send him my way!

Yeah that's a bit more extreme than I was looking for. For now I'm happy with just nudging folks, I've already gotten some replies that will need to be dealt with before we even consider taking it to the next step. That being said, there are some very specific raiders where the statements above are really obvious. I'm all for reform, so if you're one of those folks and are motivated, let me know, reassure me of your commitment. Replacements SUCK and lately we haven't been getting a whole lot of consistent raiders. I'm cautious before calling out these folks, because there was a time when I was missing a lot of raids (due to RL). Despite the caliber of some of our replacements they don't hold a candle to our regulars. There are several ways to deal with attendance but I'm not sure there's any real sustainable way to fix it: - Give DKP based on attendance - Set up a 3 "strikes your out" system (or something similar) - Extend the raid to a 3rd night - Use a rotating roster (*shudders* anyone recall the initial fiasco with this?) Shifting from 3 nights to 2 nights is easy to do. Going the other way around is much more difficult. Despite having started WotLK with 3 nights, it was a short lived thing, I'm not prepared to say that we are based on that model. I'm also not prepared to go back to a 3 night model quite yet, not without fixing some of the problems we are currently having. I agree with this statement. I even made a comment on it last night. The game requirements are slowly being increased, mods are getting more complex and sophisticated. You need to find a balance between what you can and what you want to do with your system. As long as you have the minimum set of mods required and can see the "bad ######", then that's all that's really needed. Pushing your graphics or your mod usage beyond what your system is capable of doing is only gonna slow you down. Make sure your mods are kept up to date and spend the time necessary to maintain and setup them up properly.

I will do anything to get that old feeling back. Erase DKP? Sure! Change DKP system? Sure! Boot people? Sure! (You guys have to provide me the list, cause being the bad guy = crappier deal than bad raid morale) Disband and reform the raid group? Sure! Do 3 nights? Sure! Drop Ulduar? Sure! I'm just not sure how to do it, I don't think that any of the above suggestions will help the situation either. Right now, I'm giving everyone a big sharp *POKE* in the ribs, asking "why are you raiding"?

Hey guys, So I've been thinking long and hard about this and to be honest I'm a bit of at a lost on how to help our raid achieve a steadier state of progression. The very definition of "progression" seems to be quite subjective and despite my efforts to try and get a consensus among our raiders, I'm still left wondering where I should try to focus our efforts. Here are the facts: - We've been raiding with the same core group of people for the past 2 years or so - Our skill level (and for many, motivation) has remained stagnant for quite some time now - We reside on a server with an abundance of raiding opportunities. This makes finding good, well geared replacements difficult to find. - The same 10 or so people have always carried this raid. They are the ones that read/respond to forums, research boss fights, get involved in different aspects of raid administration, provide gems/enchants/gear/flasks/food to others. Goals we want to accomplish: - Finish Ulduar - Finish Ulduar Hard Modes /w Algalon - Finish Trial of the Crusader - Finish Trial of the Crusader Heroic Conclusion: We are falling behind. We no longer meet new challenges with the same kind of fervor or excitement that we used to. Our group is slowly receding from away from raid-loving individuals towards duty-bound disgruntled folks. Ask yourselves these questions, try to figure out in which category you fall into: When was the last time you read up on a boss fight prior to the encounter because you were really looking forward to experiencing the game play? If I made a list of the people who don't read up on fights, how many names would there be? Other than flasks and ensuring you have enchants/gems, what else do you do to prepare for raids? If I made a list of the people who don't contribute to others in the raid with the exception of themselves, how many names would there be? When encountering a new boss, do you relish the challenge and try to do everything you can to succeeded? Or do you strictly do what you're told on TS? When we wipe, do you try to see what kinds of things you can change to improve your performance? Or do you concede to the fact that the wipe was caused by the same 4 or 5 individuals and that success hinges on these people learning their jobs? Do you feel that you would have more fun with a different group of individuals? Which ones would you replace? Would you replace yourself? We're all guilty not having been motivated at some point in time, life has a way of creeping up on you. Generally speaking, how well do your responses apply to you? Ultimately, what I'd like to do is change the raid's outlook, morale and motivation. Get back to our SSC roots, where folks were more involved; less like lemmings jumping off a cliff and more like independent individuals capable of keeping track of fights. We've been adhering to this policy of "hate" and calling out people in order to correct problems. The strategy works, but completely wrecks group dynamics and game play atmosphere. We make folks feel like crap, we humiliate them, we anger them, we invoke some response in the hopes that they notice their mistakes and address them. WE SHOULD NOT NEED TO THIS! Beyond simply pointing out a mistake, folks should know their roles well enough to adapt quickly. How do we change and go forward to progression? Step 1 This is all out 100% honest plea. - If you joined this raid in the hopes of simply getting gear, please quit NOW. - If you do NOTHING to prepare for raids, please quit NOW. - If you are no longer motivated by raid challenges and simply want to "be with friends", please quit NOW. Your friendship means a lot, but your lack of participation is eroding the overall group morale. Feel free to join us on TS, but stay out of the raid. - If you don't want to adhere to this new policy or are compelled to insult/criticize or otherwise be un-constructive, please quit NOW. - If you acknowledge that your skill level isn't where it needs to be and aren't actively researching or doing something to improve, please quit NOW. It is difficult for me to pick out the bad apples, looking at damage/healing meters only provides me with the vaguest of insight. If we want to reform and move forward again, we need to drop the dead weight. If you're at all unsure about wanting to pursuit raiding please drop out, I'll be more than happy to accommodate you as a replacement. We won't think any less of you and you'll always be a part of the family. Step 2 Whether we have new folks come in or not, I want to maximize our return-on-investment for each raid. For every run of Ulduar we do, we have approximately 20% of the loot being used for main spec (and in many cases less than that). This leads me to believe (as stated many posts before) that our group as-is has reached somewhat of a skill-level cap. We can only move forward by getting better. The only way to cheat the above statement is by an influx of new gear. The easiest gear to get at the moment is 25man Trial of the Crusader (not Hard Modes imho). Tackling ToC is the path of least resistance. Step 3 We need to adapt our raid schedule to accommodate both the acquisition of new gear and the pursuit of our longer term goals. Here is what I propose: Tuesday: ToC (1/1) Thursday: Ulduar (1/2) Tuesday: ToC (1/1) Thursday: Ulduar (2/2) Hence we would double up on ToC and spread Ulduar over 2 weeks. This does not follow a purist progression (Ulduar -> Hard Modes -> ToC), but it's the only way I know how to proceed without encountering too much attrition. If our raid morale was better, I might be persuade to have it otherwise, but till then I think this is the best course of action. TLDR: - We are stagnant and morale's bad - Gotta change the way we address challenges - We need the dead weight and unmotivated folks to quit the raid or start participating - ToC = quick gear that could help us in Ulduar - Raid Schedule = ToC / Ulduar / ToC / Ulduar

More Yogg-Saron Madness! Ok in preperation for tonight... Phase 1 - Stays the same, Heiliger will be taking over for Ascoli since he'll be here tonight. Please be patient with him, it took Ascoli a while to get the hang of ferrying Guardians, give the new tank the same amount of patience. Phase 2 - Brain room portal assignments: 1 - Kailand 2 - Karrock 3 - Anamarie 4 - Foroshell 5 - Taidenewy 6 - Ascoli 7 - Elrikk 8 - Sneekeh 9 - Orcala 10 - Markenhoof - Tyr and Heiliger pickup the secondary Crusher Tentacles - Melee when you're not inside the brain DPS down the Corruptor Tentacles exclusively (I'll set up a main assist person for this) - Crusher Tentacle DPS on/off transitions; I'm not sure if fluctuating DPS is really worth it. Holy tanks the tentacle to remove it's slowing debuff, but DPS needs to go off when the Tentacle hits Holy too hard. Some strategies simply state that the tank should stay in until he can't no more and then move on (while DPS continues). It means the debuff stacks maybe once or twice for a few seconds, is this not acceptable/easier? Anyways, we can play around with it tonight. Phase 3 Haven't yet reached this point, I have a few notes on the group position page if anyone's interested.

Your flexibility is well appreciated.

Iron Council on Hard Mode is only what instigates the quest chain. The chain follows up with having to do the Keepers (Hodir, Thorim, Freya and Mimiron) on Hard Mode. This basically leaves 3 optional Hard Modes: Vezax, XT-002, Flame Leviathan. Yogg-Saron is debatable...You need to do Yogg-Saron +3 to get the Legendary mace, I don't know that I care to do him with +0.

Yeah I recall you saying that Waldy, I knew what you expectations were. I guess I was hunting for the quiet ppl's perspective...but then again, the quiet folks are typically the ones who don't participate in the forums. Karrock that statement contradicts itself. You cannot get to Algalon without doing Hard Modes, it's a game pre-requisite. Seems like a lot of folks don't understand that. There's a whole quest line and game mechanics that come into play to even get to Algalon.

What are your expectations? I've been getting quite a few whispers lately from folks asking whether or not we should extend our raid timer.... From my perspective, this isn't simply a yes or no answer. There are both advantages and disadvantages to playing around with the raid timer. If we extend it for the next short-term period: - We allow ourselves to work longer on Yogg-Saron. - Working longer on a boss fights, means longer waits between upgrades. - Forceful head bashing doesn't always yield results. Sometimes a break is required to re-evaluate strategies (despite what some may think this isn't something that works very well on the fly). - Longer boss trial period may or may not yield a boss kill quicker. But, there are also long-term considerations: - Do we want run ToC and Ulduar back to back? - Do we want to pursuit Hard Modes a bit more? - Do we want to reach Algalon? - Do we want to re-introduce VoA? My intent was to complete Ulduar to a majority of the raiders' satisfaction before moving on to ToC. This means downing Yogg-Saron, completing a majority of the Hard Modes, reaching Algalon and forging the Legendary Mace. If I'm mistaken in my goals and that is not what our raiders are expecting, then please let me know.

As much as I like to take pride when we accomplish something pre-nerf, I'm still very happy to see things go down faster! 10M health is a HUGE nerf!